To say that being a vegan is no better for the environment than being a meat eater?

[OnlyInYourDreams]

Unless you eat only home grown, locally sourced products?

Obviously some people are vegan because they don’t like the idea of using any kind of animal products. But all too often people say that they’re vegan because “it’s better for the environment when this is categorically not the case.

Lots of fruit/veg have to be imported which is actually worse for the environment because it involves pumping man-made substances into the environment.

Products like almond milk are terrible for the environment because e.g. it takes 1600l of water to produce 1l of almond milk. Coca-Cola is practically a green product in comparison…

If people want to be vegan, why not just say you want to be vegan. Coming up with reasons such as “it’s better for the environment” which are just rubbish and laughable is only going to increase the amount of people who don’t take vegans seriously.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

No one is asking anyone to become vegan Hahahaha. Maybe not exactly, but much effort to guilt us into it.

Morally corrupt?

It's like being doorstepped by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Are you saying that battery farming chickens, for example, ISN’T morally corrupt?

I’m talking about cheap meat, dairy and fish primarily here. It’s cheap for a reason.

There’s a quote about recycling (I think) that goes something like “we don’t need 1% of people to do it perfectly, we need 99% of people to do it imperfectly”. I think the same goes for all things to do with climate emissions - including our diet. Who can eat a perfect climate neutral diet? Hardly anyone. But we can all do a bit better. Don’t buy battery farmed. See meat as a treat to have a few times a week. Why not? Why is that offensive?

I comment because that’s the whole point of Mumsnet. Then the op can agree with those who agree with them, and argue constantly with those who don’t, and in this case, try really really hard to out-vegan each other.
‘I only eat dust and drink my own urine.’ Bla bla bla de bla.

@JassyRadlett it’s a real misconception that animals in the U.K. are fed a lot of grain. I suppose chickens are but in the most part, farmers grow their own feed. Silage, hay, grass and fodder crops are staples.

@Hellohello765 nobody in the U.K. is buying battery farmed meat. It’s been illegal since 2012.

@skirk64

YANBU, veganism is categorically and scientifically proven to be worse for the planet than meat eating is. That's before you even get into the moral argument. Eating plants is no more moral than eating meat, if anything it is worse because animals at least have a consciousness and therefore "live" a life, plants are largely defenceless and cannot attempt to evade capture/slaughter.

The fact that we know they have a consciousness makes it all the worse the horrendous conditions in which many animals are kept. For millions of animals they are provided with conditions that make their lives barely worth living.

@ElphabaTWitch

I comment because that’s the whole point of Mumsnet. Then the op can agree with those who agree with them, and argue constantly with those who don’t, and in this case, try really really hard to out-vegan each other. ‘I only eat dust and drink my own urine.’ Bla bla bla de bla.

You’re completely above that though. You’d never comment on a thread just to start an argument, oh no. That’s why your contributions have been so intelligent and informative.

@Bottleknows where though. In the past 10 years I’ve managed around 120,000 acres of farmland across the country. I’ve never seen animals kept in conditions that make their lives not worth living.

I’ve slept in lambing sheds to help sheep and head reared lots of lambs that have been abandoned by their mothers. My friends all do the same. Most farmers care an awful lot about their livestock’s well-being, I’m not say there are some that don’t, but your statement is silly.

it’s a real misconception that animals in the U.K. are fed a lot of grain. I suppose chickens are but in the most part, farmers grow their own feed. Silage, hay, grass and fodder crops are staples.

Yes, 90% of our soya meal feed imports go to poultry, pigs and fish. Most of it comes from South America where it’s certainly doing no environmental good…

And white meat is the most eaten in the U.K.

Meanwhile, not all hay, silage etc is local. We import a lot of it every year, although it fluctuates depending on the seasons we’ve had.

Even the term omni pisses me off now.

We've become a society obsessed with everyone having a fucking label from gender down to what we eat, why?
Social media likes and bragging rights or something?

It's laughable.

Quick question. If the world went vegan do you honestly believe that livestock of any description would be allowed to just run wild, wild, wild in the country?

Mass slaughter and such animals only in zoos as they no longer have any economic value. Seems to somewhat defeat the point.

[quote 21Flora]@Bottleknows where though. In the past 10 years I’ve managed around 120,000 acres of farmland across the country. I’ve never seen animals kept in conditions that make their lives not worth living.

I’ve slept in lambing sheds to help sheep and head reared lots of lambs that have been abandoned by their mothers. My friends all do the same. Most farmers care an awful lot about their livestock’s well-being, I’m not say there are some that don’t, but your statement is silly.[/quote]
I don't doubt that some farmers care for their animals (before they send them to be killed) but where this happens is in big sheds that you won't see just driving past. It's conveniently hidden from view. I didn't say all animals so my statement is not silly.

@Bottleknows I work in agriculture though... studied for four years at a specialist agricultural university and did a further two years of professional qualification. I’ve never seen any of these mysterious sheds. I’ve been on hundreds of farms though.

@OnlyInYourDreams

Except nowhere have I said “meat eaters are more environmentally sound than vegans.” I said that some vegans claim that they’re doing it for environmental reasons and the arguments don’t back that up.

And there are studies on both sides, so it’s possible to prove both points anyway.

And if you’re a vegan who wants fake meat products, why? You don’t want to eat meat, so don’t pretend that your veg is meat by calling it a steak or a vegan bacon sandwich or (as in a thread recently) vegan fish and chips. They aren’t. They’re vegetables and whatever other substance they put with them to give them the appearance of meat, that product which people apparently don’t want to eat.

People would spend far less time arguing with vegans if the vegans didn’t try to claim that you could have vegan meat, or a vegan butcher. Why not just say it’s a green grocer.

Meat alternatives are very helpful for people trying to transition from eating meat to being vegan or vegetarian. If you are used to eating meat but want to cut it out for environmental reasons (or any reason), that isn't always easy. Many people enjoy the taste of meat and miss it when they become vegan, but they are trying to reduce their consumption despite this. It's not as though they are saying they don't like meat or never crave fish and chips. Meat alternatives are very useful for them and can satisfy some of those cravings.

I just don't understand why you are so negative about it. There are numerous studies which show that eating meat (particularly red meat) has a big impact on the environment. Of course a vegan/ vegetarian lifestyle also has an impact due to transporting and growing food - it's impossible not to - but as a general rule, the impact will be much less than someone who eats a lot of meat.

For balance, just want to state that I'm not a vegan myself but I do try to limit my meat consumption for environmental reasons.

@Mytiredeyeshaveseenenough

Quick question. If the world went vegan do you honestly believe that livestock of any description would be allowed to just run wild, wild, wild in the country?

Mass slaughter and such animals only in zoos as they no longer have any economic value. Seems to somewhat defeat the point.

I think the argument is it negates any future suffering. I haven’t seen much about mass slaughter though so I can’t be sure - but logically if we killed off every cow in Britain right now it would stop their offspring being killed for generations.

OP, it's a fact that the meat industry creates far more emission than the transportation of other goods.

It's also ridiculous to suggest that if we stopped the mass farming of cows, pigs etc, they'd become extinct and I'm sure you know that.

@Mytiredeyeshaveseenenough

Quick question. If the world went vegan do you honestly believe that livestock of any description would be allowed to just run wild, wild, wild in the country?

Mass slaughter and such animals only in zoos as they no longer have any economic value. Seems to somewhat defeat the point.

Sorry, just to add: the argument being it’s better to have never lived than to be born only to die a horrible death.

[quote 21Flora]@Bottleknows I work in agriculture though... studied for four years at a specialist agricultural university and did a further two years of professional qualification. I’ve never seen any of these mysterious sheds. I’ve been on hundreds of farms though.[/quote]
I'm glad you're informed about agriculture and see mostly open grazing farming but I don't think you can deny that intensive farming, particularly of pigs and poultry, happens across the UK and Europe and that these systems cause utter misery for the animals involved.

@mustlovegin

So it's more about persuading the population to slowly reduce, reduce, reduce the demand thus reducing breeding, bringing populations down until they're at a low sustainable level like they used to be when some people are meat once a week

Stop trying to persuade. Stop the Gretas. Stop instigating the western world to become ill and malnourished.

You know all the overweight ill looking people I see around are the vegans that you are so worried about being malnourished?

@Bottleknows Which is why I have advocated on this thread that people eat local, organic and seasonal meat. I do not eat meat from Europe ever, it isn’t produced to the same standards at the U.K. we get our pork from the organic farm a couple of miles away.

I think it’s really important for people who work in agriculture to stand up for themselves and the high quality produce in this country.

Except nowhere have I said “meat eaters are more environmentally sound than vegans.” I said that some vegans claim that they’re doing it for environmental reasons and the arguments don’t back that up.

But surely if meat eaters are not as environmentally sound, then vegans who are doing it for environmental reasons do have a good argument? Not sure what you're getting at there.

Almond milk and palm oil are not great environmentally but it's not just vegans who buy these things. I have a subscription to Ethical Consumer and try to buy ethically, and locally where I can (within the parameters of "don't want to live on potatoes and cabbage from October to May every year"). You can access the Ethical Consumer site without subscribing and I find it really helpful not just on environmental issues but also things like workers' rights. However I did end up drinking hemp milk as a result

@Pumperthepumper
what is there to feel guilty about?
Well, some intensive meat operations (broilers, many pig units) are poor for welfare and probably not great environmentally - there you are feeding feed crops, not just using up leftovers from the human food chain or dual-purpose crops like stubble turnips.

But when it comes to outdoor sheep and cattle, provided they are well cared for from birth to slaughter, I have no issues. Pastureland is great for wildlife, and grazing ruminants have been part of the ecosystem since they first evolved.

I have more issues over the ethics of flying somewhere for a weekend than I do over eating lamb from the Welsh uplands.

[quote 21Flora]@jgw1cows and sheep graze grade 4 and 5 land which cannot be used for food production such as the fells in the Lake District.

In arable farming you have to rotate crops every year or so otherwise the nutrients are leeched from the soil, soil erosion occurs and pests/diseased build up in the soil. The majority of farmers (U.K. based) will have a grass or clover lay in the rotation to allow the soil to recover or plant a forage crop such as sugar beet. The cattle or sheep will graze this. It improves nutrients, soil structure, reduces diseases and pests. It reduces the need for chemical pesticides and fertilisers.[/quote]
I'll be sure to tell my neighbours that they have got it all wrong and that they need to reintroduce sheep or cattle to their land.

@jgw1 Go for it, there is a lot of research that demonstrates the benefits of this sort of grazing to arable rotations.

It’s also becoming increasingly common to use this sort of grazing in nature reserves - conservation grazing.

I honestly cannot believe the comments on this thread. You cannot seriously believe that bringing an animal into existence simply to torture and eat it is MORE ethical than it never existing? Christ almighty. So yes, I am in favour of farm animals becoming extinct since they are only born to suffer, Most of these animals are genetic mutants at this point anyway - for example a broiler chicken has been selectively bred to gain weight more quickly than its legs can tale and layer hens have been bred to produce an unnatural and unhealthy amount of eggs.

[quote GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]@Pumperthepumper
what is there to feel guilty about?
Well, some intensive meat operations (broilers, many pig units) are poor for welfare and probably not great environmentally - there you are feeding feed crops, not just using up leftovers from the human food chain or dual-purpose crops like stubble turnips.

But when it comes to outdoor sheep and cattle, provided they are well cared for from birth to slaughter, I have no issues. Pastureland is great for wildlife, and grazing ruminants have been part of the ecosystem since they first evolved.

I have more issues over the ethics of flying somewhere for a weekend than I do over eating lamb from the Welsh uplands.[/quote]
My point is, you can’t be guilt-tripped if you’ve nothing to feel guilty about. I’d suggest the problem is less about vegans being passionate about not eating animal products and more about having to constantly assess our own behaviour for ethical choices.