Aggressive dog should be muzzled?

[OdiesMum]

Where I live we have a long pedestrianised walkway down the side of the house, big grass verges on either side, a lovely walk for dogs as no roads and no danger. Lots of people let their dogs off lead around here to play with each other, myself included. My dog is a friendly little thing who just loves to play. The locals have used this area to exercise dogs for years.
Recently a woman has been on the grass verge with a Dobermann. She has it on a long line and throws balls for him etc on the grass. Last week my dog ran over to hers to play and her dog went ballistic and almost pulled her over. I was terrified it would get away from her!! I ran to get my dog and she shouted at me that mine should be on a lead. I politely explained that people use this area to let their dogs play and she said hers was dog aggressive which is why it’s on a long line and so should everyone else’s dog be on lines. I didn’t get into an argument with her, just got my dog and walked away. This morning I was talking to another dog Walker who said to watch out for the Dobermann on a long line as it had attacked her dog!!! If I see her again I’m going to tell her to muzzle the bloody thing. Why take your aggressive dog to an area where there are off lead dogs?? AIbU?

@frumpety

I am not sure I would walk a dog that had dog issues in an area that traditionally is where people let their dogs off lead to play, very few dogs have 100% recall 100% of the time. Personally I would also be tempted to muzzle train it, I wouldn't want another dog getting hurt, even if its the owners fault if it did.

The woman with the doberman was playing ball with her dog minding her own business. It isnt fair that it should be muzzled because the op can't control hers

Very unreasonable to think it’s okay because your dog is friendly.
I have a very friendly teenage pup who has excellent recall because we put in the time and care about other dogs. If she’s off and the minute I see another dog or even a person, she is recalled and on her lead, interaction if both of us as owners are agreeable. If the other owner doesn’t put theirs on a lead, she still will be because I don’t want her to learn that it’s a free for all when another dog is about.

Took her to the beach a couple of months ago and always keep her on her lead until we’re established onto the beach. At the entrance to the beach, a woman had a crazy Dachshund off lead, it got right into my dog’s face snarling and growling whilst the woman just stood there taking no action, feebly trying to shout it and then walking off with no apology.

How frightening must it be for an in pain, petrified or reactive dog to be confined on a lead and unable to get out of the situation of another dog they know nothing about, getting in their space? How would you react?

I think a massive part of modern ownership is people who don’t actually take the time to read about dog behaviour, put in the effort to train their dog and excuse everything with the ‘friendly’ line. So many seem so entitled that their dog has a right to be off lead and having a great big, do what you want fest with no care for anyone else. Respect for other dogs and owners goes a long way.

[quote Orangesand]@vivainsomnia 'An aggressive dog likely to bite should be muzzled end of.'

But sadly you are missing the point.

If I take my dog on a walk (who is scared of other dogs and may bite them, but fine with children and people), I have him safely on a lead, with a pocket full of treats and we are working on his confidence/training etc. I am totally in control of him. We are minding our own business. He is not a danger to anyone or any dog.

Then let's say, you then let your dog run over to mine, your dog starts jumping up and my dog bites your dog. That's your fault. I am not going to muzzle my dog when we are doing nothing wrong. We are minding our own business and you would be the one to cause the violence. You would be totally at fault in that instance.

[/quote]
This!
With bells on!
I have a male dog. He's old now. But in his very much younger days he used to play with another male dog. Hormones got in the way and their rough play that they used to enjoy turned into dominance. To the point where we stopped allowing them to play and kept them on a lead. One day, the owner and I were having a chat, both dogs on lead, sitting down, minding their own business while we chatted. It took many meetings to be able to do this. Little dog came running up from nowhere, owner nowhere in sight, yapping away, disturbed the peace, both of our dogs reacted to this little dog. Luckily they were both on lead and nothing happened but anyone watching from a distance would have said ooo look at those big dogs (boxer and labrador) having a fight!
I never did see the owner. The dog ran away as soon as it disturbed the peace!

Personally I would also be tempted to muzzle train it, I wouldn't want another dog getting hurt, even if its the owners fault if it did.

Muzzles don't prevent injury, they just prevent bites.

They also leave your dog helpless if they do get attacked. If your muzzled dog is pinned down and attacked they have no way of properly defending themselves.

You're the problem, I'm afraid. It is widely-accepted dog etiquette that if you see another dog on lead, you leash yours and don't allow it to end up in another dog's face. Those owners with dogs on leads will know their dogs very well and know what may cause them to react. By allowing your off-lead dog - who you apparently can't recall - to get right in another dog's space, you're causing stress to the dog, distress and probably fury to the owner, having to deal with yet another over-entitled idiot, and may have set that dog back months in its training. Imagine you're enjoying a walk in the park and a total stranger runs towards you and keep running until they're right up in your face, nose to nose with you. Would you greet them with joy or would you want to run away/smack them in the face? There's your answer. Behave decently around other owners or don't have a dog. As you may infer, I have a dog-reactive dog - fine off-lead when he can move away freely if he chooses but if another dog invades his personal space when he's on-lead and can't escape, he will warn them off quite forcefully if need be. As his owner, I do everything possible to avoid placing him in that situation, but I have told inconsiderate owners off in no uncertain terms. You telling me 'My dog is friendly' is utterly meaningless if my dog doesn't like interaction with other dogs. Amongst owners of reactive dogs, you'd be known as an MDIF (My Dog Is Friendly) and it's not a compliment!

Your dog should be on a lead. She shouldn't have an aggressive dog. You both sound as bad as each other. Pity the poor non-dog owners having to put up with this nuisance every day.

@Viviennemary

Your dog should be on a lead. She shouldn't have an aggressive dog. You both sound as bad as each other. Pity the poor non-dog owners having to put up with this nuisance every day.

Eh? What should she do with it then?

I’m sorry but as a dog owner you’re being totally unreasonable and entitled.
It’s a public place not private land so you should not be allowing your dog to run up to other, unknown dogs.
Sick to death of people not controlling their dogs and then have the audacity to blame other dog walkers for it.
You want the Doberman muzzled because you can’t keep your dog under control? Unbelievable

No one has still responded to the issue of the long lead and the fact that a dog could be minding its own business within the parameter and suddenly attack by the dog, which might very well be what happened with the other dog that was attacked.

@vivainsomnia

No one has still responded to the issue of the long lead and the fact that a dog could be minding its own business within the parameter and suddenly attack by the dog, which might very well be what happened with the other dog that was attacked.

Because that's not the issue/not relevant.

If you read the OP it says her dog ran over to the other one to play.

vivainsomnia
The dog on a long line who is playing with its owner is minding its own business with its owner. That's why people aren't responding regarding it.

The OP chose to allow her dog to run up to other dogs under the guise of being friendly. She needs her dog to be under proper control.

It is perfectly relevant. Yes, OP shouldn’t have let her dog run to the aggressive one, but it doesn’t take away the issue that there is a dangerous dog in an area full of dogs, which what OP describes is not a large plot that is not control if on a long lead.

It just takes her throwing the ball one way at the same time someone is doing the so in in the same direction and both dogs running to it. Whose fault is it then when that dog attacks the other dog going about its business?

@vivainsomnia

No one has still responded to the issue of the long lead and the fact that a dog could be minding its own business within the parameter and suddenly attack by the dog, which might very well be what happened with the other dog that was attacked.

Go on, then, I'll bite

I have seen the word 'attack' used in a pretty broad way from a dog being literally skinned (my own dog) by an off lead dog right up to a dog simply lunging and barking and growling, muzzle punching but without any intention of biting or causing real injury. As I said in a pp, my own experience of studying canine behaviour (degree level) is that lots of pet owners lack the skills to accurately judge a dog's behaviour correctly.

That means we have no real idea what this doberman was doing or whether or not this really is a dog 'likely' to bite or simply a dog likely to lunge and bark. So the long line may be irrelevant here because there may be no attack parametre at all. There may simply be a reaction parametre.

Many (most?) reactive dogs could not cope with proximity of closer than 10m (the standard length of a long line) and most socially adept dogs can easily read they are not welcome at distances much greater than that. They have carnivore ancestry and all carnivores have complex and clever communication methods that are developed exactly to prevent the need for close proximity where it is not wanted - because close proximity risks injury which risks not being able to hunt which risks death.

So the 10m lead would appear to be fine - imo anyway.

I certainly wouldn’t want to take my dog in an open area where an known aggressive dog is on a long lead known to attack others. My dog could get startled by a loud noise and run in the same direction for instance.

You can’t fully control an aggressive dog on a long lead in a busy area.

@vivainsomnia are you the OP?

vivainsomnia
Surely your dog would either be on a lead or be well trained so they were nowhere near said dog.
🤷‍♀️

@vivainsomnia - If you can't fully control a small dog who's running around looking for "friends", that dog should be on the leash, no matter how friendly they are. We have a pup whose recall still needs practice. She spends most of the time on the leash because of that. It happened to us that she spotted a leashed dog before we did and she ran to them. We always apologised to the owner and certainly didn't give out if the dog was unfriendly and snapped after her because it was our fault, not theirs.
A dog can be reactive for many different ways. It is the duty of every dog owner, small or large breed to have them perfectly trained in recall. So many times you see the small breeds running around with zero control, pulling on the leash, snapping at other dogs, running to them, bothering them, then running away.
Does your dog have a perfect recall or is she simply allowed to run around freely without control?

You were in the wrong. You don't let your dog run over to others who are on lead. If he could be trusted, he'd be off too. If you can't call yours back then he should be on a long line.

#sparepantsandtoothbrush, I was talking about single dogs, who are manifestly untrained as they pull constantly, jump up and have zero recall. That's not okay by me. It's pretty irritating when I've put in hours so I can enjoy my dogs off-lead, and they can have their freedom, but feel I must keep leashing them or calling them in because yet another dog on a lead is approaching. A dog that, nine times out of ten, isn't ill, injured, aggressive or reactive.

If you, with one dog on and one dog off, were to call out that your dogs are social, that would be fine.

@vivainsomnia

It is perfectly relevant. Yes, OP shouldn’t have let her dog run to the aggressive one, but it doesn’t take away the issue that there is a dangerous dog in an area full of dogs, which what OP describes is not a large plot that is not control if on a long lead.

It just takes her throwing the ball one way at the same time someone is doing the so in in the same direction and both dogs running to it. Whose fault is it then when that dog attacks the other dog going about its business?

Oh stop! Stop making up other scenarios to justify yourself!

The doberman was under control. Dangerous or not it was not running loose or annoying anyone.

Well, nobody other than those whose dogs are allowed off lead even when they don't have good recall.

Her responsibility is to keep it under control.

A powerful aggressive dog can't be controlled on a long line, or an extending lead. She needs to use a short lead so the dog stays close to her; and a muzzle if it's liable to bite.

@2bazookas

Her responsibility is to keep it under control.

A powerful aggressive dog can't be controlled on a long line, or an extending lead. She needs to use a short lead so the dog stays close to her; and a muzzle if it's liable to bite.

Erm! That's exactly what long lines are for!

Extending leads are an abomination, mainly due to clueless owners. But long leads and long lines are essential training tools for all dogs, especially any that are reactive, aggressive or not!

And from OPs own description, this owner was using hers as recommended by many trainers/behaviourists!

@2bazookas

Her responsibility is to keep it under control.

A powerful aggressive dog can't be controlled on a long line, or an extending lead. She needs to use a short lead so the dog stays close to her; and a muzzle if it's liable to bite.

posted too soon

You know her dog is agressive to yours so you need to keeo your own dog away from her, on a lead, under your control.

@2bazookas

Her responsibility is to keep it under control.

A powerful aggressive dog can't be controlled on a long line, or an extending lead. She needs to use a short lead so the dog stays close to her; and a muzzle if it's liable to bite.

Muzzle an on lead controlled dog, so it can't defend itself against off lead out of control dogs.... yeah makes sense 🤔