To think that a Rape Crisis centre should not have a transwoman CEO?

[ArabellaScott]

Mridhul Wadhwa has just been appointed CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis. The job was advertised as for women only. Mridhul is a transwoman (born male) without a Gender Recognition Certificate.

AIBU to think that women survivors of rape and sexual violence should be able to have a female only space?

theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2021/05/new-boss-for-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre/

5zeds

I was responding to the response to you, not your post.

2 + 2 = 5 is true because those with power say it is true.

If you believe 2 + 2 = 5

and

I believe 2 + 2 = 5

then

2 + 2 = 5.

Well said, fernlake

@Waitwhat23

Equality Act 2010, Schedule 9. - www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/9

There is also a guidance note which notes specific examples, including councillors in rape crisis services but I can't currently find it - will post when I do.

Found it.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1/1/3

Quoted below.

•The need for authenticity or realism might require someone of a particular race, sex or age for acting roles (for example, a black man to play the part of Othello) or modelling jobs.

•Considerations of privacy or decency might require a public changing room or lavatory attendant to be of the same sex as those using the facilities.

•An organisation for deaf people might legitimately employ a deaf person who uses British Sign Language to work as a counsellor to other deaf people whose first or preferred language is BSL.

•Unemployed Muslim women might not take advantage of the services of an outreach worker to help them find employment if they were provided by a man.

•A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman and not a transsexual person, even if she has a Gender Recognition Certificate, in order to avoid causing them further distress.

This from a gov pub (will post link in a minute)

"Exception allowing single sex services to discriminate because of gender re-assignment

The third exception (Schedule 3, paragraph 28) allows providers of separate or single-sex services to provide a different service to, or to exclude, someone who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. This includes those who have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), as well as someone who does not have a GRC but otherwise meets the definition under the Equality Act 2010.

Application of this exception must be objectively justified as a means of achieving a legitimate aim. An example given in the explanatory notes to the Act is that of a group counselling service for female victims of sexual assault where the organisers could exclude a woman with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if they judge that clients would be unlikely to attend the session if she was there.

Schedule 23, paragraph 3 of the Equality Act 2010 also allows a service provider to exclude a person from dormitories or other shared sleeping accommodation, and to refuse services connected to providing this accommodation on grounds of sex or gender reassignment. As with paragraph 28 and other exceptions under the Equality Act, such exclusion must be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

How come those who claim to be trans-racial or trans-age are not given the same rights in law?

A white person who claimed the right to self identify as black would be ridiculed or worse, especially if they then decided to paint themselves a darker skin colour.

How is this issue any different?

And no cop out “go educate yourself” or #nodebate crap here.

If you want others to accept your POV, try debating them in a civilised way.

Yes, there’s a lot to be gained from transparency and public confidence in service provision. It’s almost as if that is therapeutic, in and of itself!

Quite. Rather than organisations and political parties pledging "single sex spaces" when it's a complete gaslighting lie.

If you want others to accept your POV, try debating them in a civilised way.

After spending a couple of hours on Twitter this evening and seeing the rabid, nasty responses from trans activists, I won’t hold my breath.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes thank you for posting the link to the guidance notes - I have definitely read it previously but couldn't remember where I found it!

I see Robin has shown up again to tell us women don't have sex based rights. Well, Robin, if we don't, then what was that clause the ERR invoked in their job advert? this made me laugh because it’s almost exactly what I was thinking. I afraid I don’t have a legal background “Robin” but I’m fairly sure that if you can advertise for a female, there must be something in this sex thing that’s significant to this situation, no?

I’m old and fairly infuriated that this person thinks they have ANY right to force their way into such a very important place. It’s unforgivable and not what I recognise as right, wise or just. What a selfish unpleasant thing to do.

Thank you, Potholes and Tulips, it's always good to see the relevant legislation laid out clearly.

It's SO clear.

It's so understandable, sensible and straightforward.

'•A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman and not a transsexual person, even if she has a Gender Recognition Certificate, in order to avoid causing them further distress.'

Some poster wish to argue the toss because the latter part, the important part, of that paragraph, just doesn't matter to them:

to avoid causing them further distress.

It's clear why women want single sex spaces in some specific instances, like this one.

Why are some people insistent that they shouldn't have them?

And who knows how involved the CEO is? Presumably the organisation thought they would be involved enough to make the EA2010 expection appropriate. Why invoke it otherwise?

This is what I don't get - why would ERCC advertise for a female and employ a male?

That’s creepy AF.

@5zeds

This RCC is not single sex anymore. Are there any truly single sex facilities for rape victims in Edinburgh?

There's going to be one set up. I will be helping, I will fight tooth and nail to keep it single sex.

I will happily help to fund that, dingo.

If you’ve never been in a woman only space, then it’s probably hard to understand the value of them.

It would mean that you’d just have to take women’s word for it, on how healing they are.

Some people struggle to believe women, to take what we say at face value, to take our concerns seriously. Those people shouldn’t be anywhere near a rape crisis centre.

Congressdingo

That is great news. And thank you!!!

The job description for the role being discussed invoked the requirement that only women could apply, citing Schedule 9 of the Equalities Act. I would assume that they considered the matter during their pre-recruitment process and decided that it was a occupational requirement to have a particular protected characteristic as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

As the successful candidate did not meet this occupational requirement, it raises questions as to why the organisation stated the need for such an occupational requirement in the first place and why they have ignored it.

Some people struggle to believe women, to take what we say at face value, to take our concerns seriously. Those people shouldn’t be anywhere near a rape crisis centre.

Yes, exactly. Anyone who dismisses women's concerns is simultaneously marking themselves as someone deeply unsuitable for a role that involves listening to, supporting and empowering women.

@mindutopia

You do realise that boys and men get raped too? I have an ex who is lovely (he's a regular old cis man) who used to volunteer as a rape crisis counselor and used to provide peer support to men and boys in hospital who were undergoing forensic exams. You'd be surprised how little support there is for male rape survivors of rape, never mind trans people. Trans men and women also get raped.

So why don’t men set up their own rape centres and raise funds? Women many years ago worked hard to get these centres up. Why do women have to do all the hard work? I’m quite happy to donate to a male rape centre. But they should have their own spaces organised by men.

So if I identify as a BME man can I apply for jobs where it specifically has an exemption and only BME men can apply? Same thing?

[quote JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn]@DrSbaitso ah yes... so we have to sit and wait for the menz to come and save us.[/quote]
I hope not, but I don't think our society, with its focus on men's wants, will quite accept how much biological sex matters until denying it stops straight men from getting what they want.

You do realise that boys and men get raped too? I have an ex who is lovely (he's a regular old cis man) who used to volunteer as a rape crisis counselor and used to provide peer support to men and boys in hospital who were undergoing forensic exams. You'd be surprised how little support there is for male rape survivors of rape, never mind trans people. Trans men and women also get raped

Yes of course. But making a women's refuge / rape crises centre open to people who are not women is not the way forward and it doesn't help women who have experienced rape, trauma and domestic violence. In reality it makes things much worse for women, and they would be less likely to use those services as a result of that. A separate service for other groups needs to be set up. Rather than using the group's that women have set up for women.

I also wonder whether theres a safegarding issue here, where people who change gender also change their name, and don't disclose their previous name when applying for jobs.

I also wonder whether theres a safegarding issue here, where people who change gender also change their name, and don't disclose their previous name when applying for jobs.

There are a number of serious Safeguarding issues. DBS has a self id service which returns a cerificate indicating the opposite sex and there is an additional loophole if a GRC has been obtained.

relevant thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4208155-The-Times-Law-section-Thursday-1st-April-Trans-judge-wants-a-more-diverse-judiciary?pg=2