To be concerned about primary teachers not having basic maths skills?

[ThreeTimesThree]

My year 3’s DS teachers are repeatedly making mistakes, and I’m wondering if I need to raise this officially with the school.

His usual class teacher (who is now on leave) was unable to read a scale over 100cm. (This was during home schooling and I happened to be with him at the time) So when the scale went to 100cm and 3cm, she said “130cm and 3cm”. And for the next example made a similar mistake. My son said this was not right and what the answer should be. To which she apologised, and just skipped the rest of these similar questions.

Another teacher he’s had since April was unable to do fractions; so saying 3/4 of 120 is 30, 5/6 of 180 is 30, 2/3 of 90 is 30. My DS pointed out these were incorrect and told her what the answers should be. So at first she insisted her working were right But DS insisted it was not right and explained his working out,she double checked and said yes and made the class rub their work out and rewrite it down. She’s now off isolating so DS currently has a supply teacher.

Supply teacher “teaching” fractions last week. And saying 1/2 x2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25, 2/4 x 2 = 4/8. She was trying to teach equivalent fractions. DS told the teacher those were incorrect, and she was just rewriting the same fraction but using different numbers.

But the teacher insisted she was right. My son said 1/2 x 2 is the same as 1/2 + 1/2 which equals 1. But she replied, “we are not doing addition, we are doing multiplication.” And told DS he was confused. DS has amazing maths skills and came home that day very upset as the teacher was teaching them incorrect maths.

I had a word with the teacher the following morning to say DS was upset and if she could tell me what she had taught. And sure enough she said she was teaching the children 1/2 x 2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25. I politely pointed out these didn’t look right, and if she could review what she was teaching them. But the next day she did the same mistakes again, as my DS informed me.

Just wondering if I should raise this with the head? Surely teachers need to have better maths skills than this?

Raise? Report?
Why do we need to jump immediately to this sort of anger.
What an odd post? Nothing about the words “raise” or “report” implies anger. You would normally report something by politely emailing the head about the issue and requesting a meeting to discuss further.

@Blabla81, "I’ve still always managed to think quickly and teach the lesson correctly, though (much to the annoyance of the TA’s)."

Why would the TAs be annoyed about that?

@poppycat10

They don't anymore, the test was abolished a couple of years ago, now maths and English skills are supposed to be assessed as part of teacher training but not formally tested

Is that just for primary? I've got a friend who has just been accepted for secondary training (school based) and she has to do an equivalency test before she starts.

It's provider led assurance now so the teacher training provider can choose how to assess that maths and english skills meet the required level.

sta.education.gov.uk/

[quote CallmeHendricks]@Blabla81, "I’ve still always managed to think quickly and teach the lesson correctly, though (much to the annoyance of the TA’s)."

Why would the TAs be annoyed about that?[/quote]
I think they were annoyed (it’s only been on a couple of occasions) because they didn’t appreciate a random supply teacher coming in and questioning their teacher who I guess they were close to. I probably came across as arrogant at the time, to be fair

That is very, very basic maths. Googling who the Viking gods were is one thing but basic skills should be mastered. Are there regular competency assessments/ subject related CPD for teachers? I can’t really understand why there is no professional registration for teachers required in this country. There are many really well qualified and skilled teachers but there needs to be a mechanism to get rid of the few who are incompetent

I would be raising this with the head and the governors.

Over a dodgy supply teacher?

Obviously the supply teacher made mistakes. With supply you often have no idea what you’re teaching until five minutes before the class is coming in, the work set can be unclear or not there at all and if it’s not a topic you’ve done in a little while, it’s easy to not immediately remember the correct notation.

This needs correcting by the class teacher but this isn’t a massive deal in my opinion.

@BungleandGeorge

That is very, very basic maths. Googling who the Viking gods were is one thing but basic skills should be mastered. Are there regular competency assessments/ subject related CPD for teachers? I can’t really understand why there is no professional registration for teachers required in this country. There are many really well qualified and skilled teachers but there needs to be a mechanism to get rid of the few who are incompetent

CPD went out of the window with all of the budget cuts.

I had many fantastic CPD opportunities in the early stages of my career. Sadly, those opportunities are no longer there because schools can't afford it.

@Frazzled2207

We have a year 3 son as well. Just asked dh who has an a level in maths and science degree. “I don’t expect primary teachers to be experts at everything but that is definitely something I’d be complaining about”

Well if your dh had a maths a level and a science degree, his opinion is worth so much more that people without.

There is some seriously bad science being taught in Coventry.

I was teaching three different classes the same anatomy and physiology unit at the college.

Between 1/3 and 1/2 of each group argued me down that blood is always red. They pointed out that veins are blue (well they look that way through your flesh) and that it turns red when it hits fresh air because then it is 'oxidised'.

They even dismissed my prior career, part of which involved measuring oxygen in blood taken from different parts of the heart.

I've taught that unit a lot in many different places (supply) and had not come across it before. Maybe the odd student because in the GCSE text books and exam the deoxygenated blood is blue in the diagrams.

As part of my PGCE we had a talk / lecture about transitions from primary to secondary, the person giving the talk was responsible for basically pushing her secondary to parents considering schools for their child.

She put up one of many slides showing who she had to 'liaise with' which included

Teacher's
Pupil's
Parent's
Governor's

I took one look and thought, "that would put me off sending my child there".

I didn't say anything, I'd already got a reputation as a trouble maker.

I thought I knew how to multiply fractions. After reading this thread I’m totally confused.

I’ll be honest - maths is not my strong point. I was consistently in the bottom set, barely scraped a C at GCSE and I had tutoring to pass the QTS skills test. I promptly forgot everything I learned for the QTS test because I didn’t really understand any of it. I actually would go so far as to say I never understood maths until I started teaching it to year 5!
Now I can do everything on the curriculum, including long division etc. Honestly though, I still sometimes don’t know the answer to things straight off the bat (like if it’s one of those “challenge for the incredibly able children” questions) and when I do, I stop and use it as a chance to model finding the right answer without just walking them through the method. So it involves me actually working it out, talking with the child about how we can solve it, and then we usually work it out together. I think it can be really beneficial to do it like that. It’s akin to the “modelling the thinking process” when doing a shared write in English.

However, if she’s teaching year 3 maths and getting muddled I would say that she needs to work on her subject knowledge. Year 3 is a big step for the children as it involves moving to abstract concepts and written methods but really it shouldn’t be challenging for the teacher. It is frankly pretty poor for a teacher not to check the method of how to find 3/4 of an amount (which isn’t even hard). Like I’m sorry but that is shitty teaching - you’ve taught the children the complete wrong method! None of them will understand it after that lesson! With the 1/2 x 2 etc she’s multiplying the numerator and denominator by 2 which is just straight up NOT the method. You do it like 1/2 x 2/1 THEN multiply the numerators together and then the denominators - which obviously gives you 2/2 equal to 1 whole. And that’s without the BASIC understanding that 2 halves make a whole 😂 😂

YANBU, it’s one thing to find maths tricky and occasionally make mistakes (an important thing in all subjects - model how to fix the mistake, show it’s not a weakness etc) but another thing entirely to just not bother to learn the methods and teach it utterly wrong. Take some responsibility!

Tlollj

All integers can be expressed as a fraction with the denominator (lower number) 1.

So 1, 2, 3 can be written as 1/1, 2/1, 3/1

the line you use to write a fraction is a division symbol

so to multiply a half by two you write the half as 1/2 and the two as 2/1, then you can multiply the top line (1 x 2 =2) then draw a line under the answer and multiply the bottom numbers (2 x 1)and put them under the line, that gives you 2 on the top line and 2 underneath and you can cancel this to get 1.

I think that's a good point. Actively teaching the children the wrong thing and refusing to be challenged will do more than equip them with the wrong knowledge. It'll make them doubt logic and methods.

I’m a secondary trained teacher and I’ve done the odd day of primary supply - I would be mortified to think I’d taught something wrongly, whether or not it’s my specialism (very far from Maths!). It’s not great to get something wrong but it’s really bad to double down and insist you’re right!

And hang on a minute - why was she even teaching them multiplying fractions when I’m certain that’s not on the year 3 curriculum - we start it in year 5! Are you sure that’s what they were doing!l?

@year5teacher Yours is the best attitude to have.
Train yourself to teach the curriculum correctly.

Recognise your areas of weakness ( we do not want ME teaching music!).

Admit freely when you don't know the answer and work it out together. Children learn that adults do not know everything - probably a better lesson than fractions.

@NDSandG

I think you only need a C in maths (in old money). But this is primary school maths and with the support of answer books and the internet, no excuse to get these wrong. This teacher shouldn’t be in a classroom if she can’t handle basic fractions or even be bothered to check that she might be wrong. Absolutely speak to the headteacher.

That’s what I found most worrying, the teacher not being able to recognise she had written it wrong and proceeded to teach them incorrectly.

@toocold54

The actual class teacher - yes I would raise it. If you don’t want any issues you could just email the teacher first before going to the head.

The supply teacher - no I wouldn’t report. Many supply teachers have a specialism is a specific area so if they’re a qualified history teacher chances are they’ve not done maths for many years. As the normal class teacher is off it sounds like they had to get a last minute supply teacher and I doubt they’ll do much if you complain as it would mean finding another teacher to replace them.

But surely if it’s left ignored, the whole class will have been taught that 1/2 x 2 = 2/4 and the children will not have been taught the correct math?

The teacher wasn’t multiplying fractions. They were finding equivalent fractions and the notation /calculation was very wrong.

The OPs child challenged her, she dismissed them, child was distressed, OP spoke to teacher, teacher apologised.

The OP then started a thread suggesting primary teachers (plural) have poor mathematical knowledge based on 2 experiences. The first experience potentially being a very nervous teacher, misreading a scale, whilst teaching 30 children with their families watching.

The supply teacher needs the calculation policy explaining and support to plan. The governors don’t need to deal with it. A HT can definitely remedy the situation. I’ve never worked in a school, where contacting governors was first on the complaints procedure.

I’m mostly appalled on this thread by secondary teachers, who know the pressure and scrutiny we’re all under. Children leave primary, without the basic skills, for an enormous range of reasons. If you’re not aware of the barriers to learning children face, you shouldn’t be a teacher.

@themalamander

When you spoke to her yourself, didnt you dumb it right down and make it really clear why she was wrong? I wouldn't have been able to just walk away from that conversation.

Absolutely raise it with the school. I would send an email outlining what they have been teaching (and reiterate that you check with the teacher so know your son isnt making it up) and ask them to please let you know how they are going to handle re-reaching the class and what they will do going forward. Give them a couple days to reply, then phone if they dont.

I wasn’t allowed to speak to the teacher apparently. After the teacher had explained what she was teaching them (we’d been chatting no more than a min) a staff member that was on school yard duty came trotting over and said I can’t speak to the teacher due to regulations on how long I can speak to staff for (a regulation we haven’t been notified of or encountered previously). And anything I want to discuss, I should phone in. Now I was standing at least 2 metres away wearing a mask, and the teacher was just outside the classroom door. So I wrapped it up by asking the teacher to review what she was teaching and left it at that.

Is this supply teaching the class long term? I assumed it was just a daily one.

Y3 you are teaching equivalent fractions rather than multiplying. So I imagine the question was involving something like "Sally has a bar of chocolate. She gives 1/5 to her friend." So you draw a bar model and shade 1/5. "Today she has 5 bars and gives 1/5 of each bar to a friend." So you draw 5 bars of chocolate and shade 1/5 from each bar. Then use the diagrams to see that 5 out of 25 equal parts are shaded. With no simplification, this is absolutely correct.

@Grumblesigh thank you! It was a hard summer getting to grips with it all, but very worth it.
Sometimes I deliberately “have to work through” the answer to challenging question - usually an unreasonably complicated word problem - talking through what I’m doing etc. And sometimes I genuinely don’t get it immediately 😂 but getting the whole class involved, working in groups to solve it, taking suggestions and building on each other’s ideas is great, especially when they feel I’ve done that alongside them! So important that teachers aren’t seen as just the fount of all knowledge. I have girls in my class with very low maths confidence and I’ve done so much work with them on this. Because my inability to do maths was down to confidence I can relate!

This is appalling! There are some dreadful teachers around unfortunately. My view is that the pay isn't sufficient to attract the best candidates and those that do apply aren't given enough support. My daughter encountered some equally incompetent teachers when she was young and came home in tears as the teacher had told her she was wrong. We ended up home-schooling as I was so disgusted at the quality of maths teaching!

I wasn’t allowed to speak to the teacher apparently. After the teacher had explained what she was teaching them (we’d been chatting no more than a min)

So in no more than a minute you had confirmed what the teacher taught, how she represented it, and that she was definitely wrong?