To be concerned about primary teachers not having basic maths skills?

[ThreeTimesThree]

My year 3’s DS teachers are repeatedly making mistakes, and I’m wondering if I need to raise this officially with the school.

His usual class teacher (who is now on leave) was unable to read a scale over 100cm. (This was during home schooling and I happened to be with him at the time) So when the scale went to 100cm and 3cm, she said “130cm and 3cm”. And for the next example made a similar mistake. My son said this was not right and what the answer should be. To which she apologised, and just skipped the rest of these similar questions.

Another teacher he’s had since April was unable to do fractions; so saying 3/4 of 120 is 30, 5/6 of 180 is 30, 2/3 of 90 is 30. My DS pointed out these were incorrect and told her what the answers should be. So at first she insisted her working were right But DS insisted it was not right and explained his working out,she double checked and said yes and made the class rub their work out and rewrite it down. She’s now off isolating so DS currently has a supply teacher.

Supply teacher “teaching” fractions last week. And saying 1/2 x2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25, 2/4 x 2 = 4/8. She was trying to teach equivalent fractions. DS told the teacher those were incorrect, and she was just rewriting the same fraction but using different numbers.

But the teacher insisted she was right. My son said 1/2 x 2 is the same as 1/2 + 1/2 which equals 1. But she replied, “we are not doing addition, we are doing multiplication.” And told DS he was confused. DS has amazing maths skills and came home that day very upset as the teacher was teaching them incorrect maths.

I had a word with the teacher the following morning to say DS was upset and if she could tell me what she had taught. And sure enough she said she was teaching the children 1/2 x 2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25. I politely pointed out these didn’t look right, and if she could review what she was teaching them. But the next day she did the same mistakes again, as my DS informed me.

Just wondering if I should raise this with the head? Surely teachers need to have better maths skills than this?

@HalfShrunkMoreToGo literacy and numeracy skills had to be taken for the 2019-2020 cohort of teacher training. They have since been abolished.

All teachers have to pass QTS tests in numeracy and literacy regardless of the subject they teach. Yes I think I would raise it

I didn't realise they had got rid of this. When I did my PGCE you had three attempts and had to pass to get on the PGCE course.

Prior to that it had to be taken during or shortly after your course with unlimited attempts.

OP

Yes tell the head. This is unacceptable.

Although my PGCE was secondary, I spent a week in a primary, one of the teachers was a maths specialist of some sort (he might only have GCSE or he might have a degree I don't know) who took a class with all the classes in KS3 while his class had lessons with the other teachers.

Obviously this can't happen in all schools but it seemed to work in this one.

Agree with most others, that there's a big difference between a careless error and an actual misunderstanding, and it sounds like this is the latter. I get similarly irritated by English mistakes when they occur in school letters or documents that have clearly been thought about and proof-read (as opposed to a stray mistake in an email). The commonest are incorrect apostrophes, but the other two that crop up all the time are the uses of practice/ practise and infer/ imply, which I swear are written wrongly more often than correctly at DS's school. It's annoying because there is so much emphasis on correct SPAG and quite challenging maths at SATS/11+ level, and it's frankly not on for the children to be being taught it incorrectly.

@inappropriateraspberry

Many moons ago, one of my primary teachers told everyone that Elizabeth I was Elizabeth II's mother! There are no excuses for poor teaching, preparation or research. Especially these days when the internet can explain it all for you.

Aargh.

I wonder when she thought the tudor era was, and when the victorians were, relative to this?

They don't anymore, the test was abolished a couple of years ago, now maths and English skills are supposed to be assessed as part of teacher training but not formally tested

Is that just for primary? I've got a friend who has just been accepted for secondary training (school based) and she has to do an equivalency test before she starts.

And presumably our current Queen was on the throne during the plague and the Great Fire of London.

@StealthPolarBear

And presumably our current Queen was on the throne during the plague and the Great Fire of London.

She obviously got muddled up with Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, but you'd think she would have questioned herself re Tudor, Shakespeare etc!

Definitely raise it. Earlier in my career I did outreach to our local primaries, running science days and events. I found the lack of basic understanding in some cases very disturbing and always addressed it with the head.

We still get year 7s coming in with huge misconceptions at a class level and you can guess which primary they have come from. If I have another student tell me space is dark because the Sun is stuck behind Jupiter and it's light is blocked....

@LaLaLandIsNoFun and @Plantlover23, good job! It's lovely to see it explained properly.

Raise? Report?
Why do we need to jump immediately to this sort of anger.

I would write a calm email to the Head with my concerns and watch and wait.

She didn't need advanced education, just a few episodes of black adder would have sufficed

I would definitely raise this.

I do not think this is necessarily a 'young and inexperienced' problem though as a PP said. There are some fantastic early career teachers and some teachers who have taught for 15+ years who aren't up to scratch.

We have a year 3 son as well.
Just asked dh who has an a level in maths and science degree.
“I don’t expect primary teachers to be experts at everything but that is definitely something I’d be complaining about”

@randomer I can't speak for others, but a calm email to the Head is exactly what I would mean by 'raising' it.

If it’s a supply teacher, I wouldn’t worry as they will be leaving. I’m surprised they’re getting it wrong though.

OK I see your point @knighterrant. Some people idea of " raise" might not be so thoughtful and polite.

@randomer

To raise something with an organisation means to make them aware. It just means contact the school to let them know and discuss your concerns. What definition are you imagining? When did raising a concern become, "jumping to anger," and what I assume you imagine is frothing, screaming mums barging into the school office?

True...

We still get year 7s coming in with huge misconceptions at a class level and you can guess which primary they have come from.

Yes, all primary teachers are very stupid. I mean I don’t know why the hell we get paid. It’s refreshing to know that secondaries have it in hand, otherwise the pupils would be doomed. Poor bloody kids.

Can't be bothered. People just want a scrap about basically bloody anything.

"Raise" can mean many things. " Have a word with" " arrange a quick meeting" " mention" are possibly less formal and therefore, initially many be preferable.

may be, just may be.

@Happymum12345

If it’s a supply teacher, I wouldn’t worry as they will be leaving. I’m surprised they’re getting it wrong though.

This isn’t about complaining about a port supply teacher.

You can’t just ignore this, otherwise, many of the class will move on with a fundamentally flawed understanding of fractions that could cause issues for them later on in secondary school.

The Head needs to know now so that they can ensure that the children are given further lessons (by someone more competent to teach).

I considered training to become a primary school teacher for a long time, but realised that my maths is so appalling that I’d never be able to teach it. I was never very good at it and failed GCSE maths twice, I’m reasonably competent as an adult but it’s still a huge weak area for me so I decided against it in the end.

So many teachers have gaps in their knowledge though. I remember cringing and having to bite my tongue when working as a TA because the Year 1 teacher told a class that New York is the capital of the USA. So I can well believe the stories on here!

@spacegirl86

I would raise it, certainly about the supply. The class teacher I feel for, I was lucky enough not to have to do love lessons, only recorded videos and they were bad enough! It's a horrible, stressful way of teaching which doesn't show the best of most of us.

I think there is currently a shortage of supply teachers. I've had some shockers in the last few months, often secondary trained in random subjects (art and geography most recently). They just haven't the subject knowledge or experience of the primary curriculum. I am sure they are good enough in secondary schools but I dread having them cover my class. Unless I know who is covering I avoid leaving maths and English where at all possible.

If you tell the head they may be able to avoid them in future. Or maybe not if they are desperate, but at least you have tried!

Not all secondary supply staff are terrible. This is a real generalisation. I am secondary Art trained but have carried out supply work in primaries in the past. On several occasions, the work that has been set by the original class teacher has been incorrect. I have always pointed this out, however, it’s always a bit late in the day when you’re standing there in front of the class and have only had a few minutes to look through the work. I’ve still always managed to think quickly and teach the lesson correctly, though (much to the annoyance of the TA’s). I recall a science lesson which had been set for me on the topic of light and how we see objects. The teacher had prepared worksheets saying the light reflected from the object into the sun and then back into your eyes. It was most strange. In my case, I became supply at the time because I could no longer stand working with the morons in my school. We’re not all stupid 😂.

I would be raising this with the head and the governors.

I have always thought that the required maths standard to become a teacher is too low. Even at primary you can get very able children who need stretching and the teacher needs to have the skills to do that.

It should be a minimum of GCSE B grade equivalent and preferably first time pass. Where people are having to retake several times to barely scrape through with huge amounts of coaching, in my view that simply isnt a high enough level of ability to be working educating others.