To be concerned about primary teachers not having basic maths skills?

[ThreeTimesThree]

My year 3’s DS teachers are repeatedly making mistakes, and I’m wondering if I need to raise this officially with the school.

His usual class teacher (who is now on leave) was unable to read a scale over 100cm. (This was during home schooling and I happened to be with him at the time) So when the scale went to 100cm and 3cm, she said “130cm and 3cm”. And for the next example made a similar mistake. My son said this was not right and what the answer should be. To which she apologised, and just skipped the rest of these similar questions.

Another teacher he’s had since April was unable to do fractions; so saying 3/4 of 120 is 30, 5/6 of 180 is 30, 2/3 of 90 is 30. My DS pointed out these were incorrect and told her what the answers should be. So at first she insisted her working were right But DS insisted it was not right and explained his working out,she double checked and said yes and made the class rub their work out and rewrite it down. She’s now off isolating so DS currently has a supply teacher.

Supply teacher “teaching” fractions last week. And saying 1/2 x2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25, 2/4 x 2 = 4/8. She was trying to teach equivalent fractions. DS told the teacher those were incorrect, and she was just rewriting the same fraction but using different numbers.

But the teacher insisted she was right. My son said 1/2 x 2 is the same as 1/2 + 1/2 which equals 1. But she replied, “we are not doing addition, we are doing multiplication.” And told DS he was confused. DS has amazing maths skills and came home that day very upset as the teacher was teaching them incorrect maths.

I had a word with the teacher the following morning to say DS was upset and if she could tell me what she had taught. And sure enough she said she was teaching the children 1/2 x 2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25. I politely pointed out these didn’t look right, and if she could review what she was teaching them. But the next day she did the same mistakes again, as my DS informed me.

Just wondering if I should raise this with the head? Surely teachers need to have better maths skills than this?

“ No, that's 90°. Or twelve-fifths as this teacher may prefer.”

@DdraigGoch, you’re right. I went too far, twice as far as I should.

Raise with Head and Governing body.

@Carouselfish

Having read your post more thoroughly op (sorry, so late at night) I'd say the class teacher panicked and stopped teaching until she could have another look, the other teacher sensibly admitted the mistake and the sub teacher is just too scared to admit they're wrong. Hopefully the normal teacher will correct the mistake when they're back. It's unfortunate that it's all in the same subject.

It's hard to do but it looks much better if you can accept, as a teacher, that your students can teach you things sometimes, (without feeling like or giving the impression that your authority is undermined) .

@carouselfish No worries, it’s easy to mis-read when tired. Yes I imagine the class teacher panicked when she realised she was unable to explain how to read the scale correctly, whether that was a momentary lack of focus or even a gap in knowledge, it did not concern me too much. What I did appreciate was that the teacher recognised she was making mistakes and stopped, rather than continue in the same vain. I like to think she revisited the questions she skipped and taught the children how to correctly read a scale over 100cm in the next lesson.

With regards to the second teacher, I agree. It was good to hear that although she insisted initially she was right, when DS explained how she had only worked out a 1/4 or 1/6 etc and what the answers should be, she was able to stop and think and to recognise her mistake. DS even said, “at least Miss fixed it” and therefore was not bothered by it. And it didn’t undermine her authority, as DS appreciated it when she corrected her mistakes and if anything, he respects her more for being able to recognise and rectify mistakes. DS is awaiting her return so he can ask her what 1/2 x 2 equals. So clearly he trusts her judgement.

With the supply teacher, I honestly think that she thought she was correct. And yes she would have been correct if she wrote 1/2 x 2/2 = 2/4 or said 1/2 = 2/4 and used arrows from both top and bottom to show each one has been multiplied by 2. But being unable to rectify the incorrect equation when queried and continuing to write it in that incorrectly is what I found worrying.

She has explained that they are teaching equivalent fractions, so her examples are correct. It sounds like the notation on the board was wrong. However, in year 3, I'd be surprised if the majority could follow you into understanding that 1/2 x 2 is wrong but 1/2 x 2/2 is correct. You would need to find a visual way to make it clear. Usually pizza or chocolate bar.

The OP then started a thread suggesting primary teachers (plural) have poor mathematical knowledge based on 2 experiences.

And then lots of other people chip in with terrible ideas which would confuse children even more!

It' not just schools though, there is lot of not understanding maths in the general population.

I remember GMTV (yes I know that's years ago) dedicating its entire programme to 50% of hospitals being below average.

@Flipflops85

I wasn’t allowed to speak to the teacher apparently. After the teacher had explained what she was teaching them (we’d been chatting no more than a min)

So in no more than a minute you had confirmed what the teacher taught, how she represented it, and that she was definitely wrong?

Yes. I wrote the equations down and showed her if these were what she had been teaching. Clears up any misunderstanding written down. 1/2 x 2 = 1/5 x 5 = 2/4 x 2 =
She confirmed yes, that is what she was teaching. I asked her what the answers should be for each one and she said 2/4, 5/25 and 4/8.

I'm sad that things haven't changed much. When DD1 was in year 6, they had a supply teacher in who was teaching subtracting 85 by subtracting 100 then adding back 15. Her example was somewhat pitiful: 290 - 85. Obviously DD did it by ignoring the 200, subtracting 85 from 90 then adding the 200 back in again. The teacher was adamant the answer was 215. DD got into a stand-up row with her and was reported to the Head, who was the normal Maths teacher. The Head was brilliant about it and said that DD was correct to question and correct the teacher and said she wouldn't ask that supply person back.

Then a year later, DD2 had a NQT who was really up himself. He set a homework on conductors of electricity asking which was the best: gold, copper or plastic? DD asked as we got in the car, so I told her to phone DH (electronics expert, PhD). DH said he'd explain that evening. Long story short, DD wrote either copper or gold, I can't remember which, and it was marked wrong. She was livid. It was Parents Evening the following week so DH took in the data sheets and told the guy why he was wrong. The other teacher in the room was the aforementioned Head who was trying her best not to laugh at this guy being very politely and calmly taught basic science by DH, yet still refusing to accept he was wrong. He didn't last the term...

Then a year later, DD2 had a NQT who was really up himself. He set a homework on conductors of electricity asking which was the best: gold, copper or plastic?

In primary?

YANBU - it’s unacceptable.
I also get steamed up about teachers who make basic spelling/grammar mistakes.

And if they, or the head teacher, like to think these things don’t matter any more, you can multiply my steamed-up-ness by about 100.

They don't have to be. If you're comparing them statistically you'd expect some to be not statistically different!

What makes some metals better conductors than others really isn’t basic science that’s appropriate for primary.

@Whatelsecouldibecalled

All teachers have to pass QTS tests in numeracy and literacy regardless of the subject they teach. Yes I think I would raise it

The QTS tests are pretty easy. There was nothing on there about adding and multiplying fractions for example.

@Flipflops85

The teacher wasn’t multiplying fractions. They were finding equivalent fractions and the notation /calculation was very wrong.

The OPs child challenged her, she dismissed them, child was distressed, OP spoke to teacher, teacher apologised.

The OP then started a thread suggesting primary teachers (plural) have poor mathematical knowledge based on 2 experiences. The first experience potentially being a very nervous teacher, misreading a scale, whilst teaching 30 children with their families watching.

The supply teacher needs the calculation policy explaining and support to plan. The governors don’t need to deal with it. A HT can definitely remedy the situation. I’ve never worked in a school, where contacting governors was first on the complaints procedure.

I’m mostly appalled on this thread by secondary teachers, who know the pressure and scrutiny we’re all under. Children leave primary, without the basic skills, for an enormous range of reasons. If you’re not aware of the barriers to learning children face, you shouldn’t be a teacher.

It appears comprehension might not be your best skill.

The teacher did not apologise after I spoke to her. No idea how you came to that conclusion. She told me that 1/2 x 2 = 2/4 etc in response to the equations I’d written down. So telling me the wrong answers also. I did not want to undermine her in front of DS, so politely asked if she could review this as it didn’t seem right to me.

Also I provided three incidents for three teachers; again no idea where you got two.
And surely as my experience is with three teachers (three being plural) I will be concerned about a plural number of teachers?
And the question for the thread was if I should be concerned and raise this or not with the school. Not sure why you’re taking such an issue to me asking this.

How dare I expect teachers to teach correctly and be concerned about something like this.

I remember GMTV (yes I know that's years ago) dedicating its entire programme to 50% of hospitals being below average.
This absolutely can and does happen (more often than not), it simply means that your distribution is skewed.

@PurpleDaisies

What makes some metals better conductors than others really isn’t basic science that’s appropriate for primary.

Yes, I was also surprised at the example. I did physics to a grad level, but I would struggle to explain all detail here (never mind to a primary aged child).

“I wasn’t allowed to speak to the teacher apparently.
After the teacher had explained what she was teaching them (we’d been chatting no more than a min) a staff member that was on school yard duty came trotting over and said I can’t speak to the teacher due to regulations on how long I can speak to staff for (a regulation we haven’t been notified of or encountered previously). And anything I want to discuss, I should phone in. “

@ThreeTimesThree, might this be because the school had already been made aware of the mistakes the supply teacher had been making, and they were dealing with it? Let’s hope so.

Not that inventing a rule about how long you were allowed to speak to the supply teacher was right in any way. Perhaps it was a spur of the moment reaction by the staff member who couldn’t think quickly enough how to explain what the school was doing, with the supply teacher there.

Can see how it could be interpreted as 1/5 x 5 though, by either a child who hasn't quite understood or a teacher who hasn't taught fractions for a while, esp in that year group, and hasn't had chance to brush up.

If you're doing equivalent fractions like that, you really need to stress what you do to the top you do to the bottom, so we are having five times as many wholes, not just 5 x 1/5.

   X5

1 5

• -

5 25 X5

Not 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5, which obviously equals 5/5 or 1 whole.

You have to be SO careful with teaching fractions!

@poppycat10

They don't anymore, the test was abolished a couple of years ago, now maths and English skills are supposed to be assessed as part of teacher training but not formally tested

Is that just for primary? I've got a friend who has just been accepted for secondary training (school based) and she has to do an equivalency test before she starts.

Equivalency tests are an alternative for GCSEs. Your friend probably didn’t have the right grades so she took an equivalency test. The literacy and numeracy skills tests are different.

@themalamander

Let's be honest, many teachers are lacking in many areas. Grammar seems to be a common one. I'm sick to the back teeth of the letters which say, "hand it back to myself," or, "call myself anytime." I've turned into the horrible parent who corrects it and sends it back in their homework jotter. She's still doing it. I'm sure she thinks it makes her sounds smarter by always using myself, but it just doesn't.

What a smug twat you are

I know some people who are extremely well qualified and have changed careers to be teachers as the pay is really quite good in comparison to equivalents. I think the retention problems are more to do with working conditions. I believe that primary teaching degrees and NQT places are pretty competitive. Is there any monitoring and evaluation for supply teachers to ensure quality? I presume they are on a higher hourly rate? A lot of workplaces make the mistake of cutting back, treating their salaried staff poorly and then having to plug gaps which ultimately costs more and provides a poorer end result.

So much for my formatting!

@forinborin

I remember GMTV (yes I know that's years ago) dedicating its entire programme to 50% of hospitals being below average. This absolutely can and does happen (more often than not), it simply means that your distribution is skewed.

Depends which ‘average’ you are using, it might not be a mean average

[quote Stophammertime123]@themalamander It appears you lack in manners.[/quote]
It's not wrong to highlight a teachers lack of education. No wonder kids leave school practically illiterate. I work with a lovely young man who is training to be a teacher who cannot spell for toffee.
If he leaves me a note I do correct him in what I hope is not a patronising way and I also used to return letters to school corrected.

@Theydidntwin

“I wasn’t allowed to speak to the teacher apparently. After the teacher had explained what she was teaching them (we’d been chatting no more than a min) a staff member that was on school yard duty came trotting over and said I can’t speak to the teacher due to regulations on how long I can speak to staff for (a regulation we haven’t been notified of or encountered previously). And anything I want to discuss, I should phone in. “

@ThreeTimesThree, might this be because the school had already been made aware of the mistakes the supply teacher had been making, and they were dealing with it? Let’s hope so.

Not that inventing a rule about how long you were allowed to speak to the supply teacher was right in any way. Perhaps it was a spur of the moment reaction by the staff member who couldn’t think quickly enough how to explain what the school was doing, with the supply teacher there.

I also think it was a spur of the moment thing by the other staff member. It did take me aback as I had spoken to teachers previously and not come across this.

I believe it was more a case of not having the supply teacher explain what she is teaching in response to my query, to avoid the supply teacher inadvertently admitting something she had taught incorrectly. The less I know the better, is what the staff member was thinking I’m guessing.