To be concerned about primary teachers not having basic maths skills?

[ThreeTimesThree]

My year 3’s DS teachers are repeatedly making mistakes, and I’m wondering if I need to raise this officially with the school.

His usual class teacher (who is now on leave) was unable to read a scale over 100cm. (This was during home schooling and I happened to be with him at the time) So when the scale went to 100cm and 3cm, she said “130cm and 3cm”. And for the next example made a similar mistake. My son said this was not right and what the answer should be. To which she apologised, and just skipped the rest of these similar questions.

Another teacher he’s had since April was unable to do fractions; so saying 3/4 of 120 is 30, 5/6 of 180 is 30, 2/3 of 90 is 30. My DS pointed out these were incorrect and told her what the answers should be. So at first she insisted her working were right But DS insisted it was not right and explained his working out,she double checked and said yes and made the class rub their work out and rewrite it down. She’s now off isolating so DS currently has a supply teacher.

Supply teacher “teaching” fractions last week. And saying 1/2 x2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25, 2/4 x 2 = 4/8. She was trying to teach equivalent fractions. DS told the teacher those were incorrect, and she was just rewriting the same fraction but using different numbers.

But the teacher insisted she was right. My son said 1/2 x 2 is the same as 1/2 + 1/2 which equals 1. But she replied, “we are not doing addition, we are doing multiplication.” And told DS he was confused. DS has amazing maths skills and came home that day very upset as the teacher was teaching them incorrect maths.

I had a word with the teacher the following morning to say DS was upset and if she could tell me what she had taught. And sure enough she said she was teaching the children 1/2 x 2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25. I politely pointed out these didn’t look right, and if she could review what she was teaching them. But the next day she did the same mistakes again, as my DS informed me.

Just wondering if I should raise this with the head? Surely teachers need to have better maths skills than this?

If you've got half a pizza, then double it, you'd be pretty annoyed if you ended up with two quarters!

This is what I meant by arcs over the top and bottom!

Oh Plant , sadly she hasn't got the message from elsewhere, and the battle I fear is lost as she is now y11.

Primary school teachers need to have a grade C GCSE in English, Maths and Science. I understand that not everyone is good at everything, but this is a pretty basic level of maths - it's every day maths, just as grammar and spelling is every day English and its unacceptable to get this wrong.

@RockingMyFiftiesNot

PS. GPs do a ton of googling too. I once got told to come back next week after he'd had a chance to look it up online.

The human body is a lot more complex than the basic maths outlined above, GPs will have things thrown at them that they can't possibly be expected to know. It's reasonable to expect primary teachers to be numerate at such a basic level.

I appreciate primary teachers have to know about a lot of things, and will need to educate themselves on topics just before they teach them. However I am shocked that people are allowed to teach primary when they can't do even primary level maths. Maths is a requirement.for so many jobs/other qualifications that if children are taught the basics incorrectly it could affect their maths at a later stage.

Poor English is another one that used to annoy me - spelling mistakes in the comments in the children's books/letters home and incorrect use of apostrophes.

A friend of mine is doing a teaching assistant qualification. Interesting that teaching assistants still have to pass English and maths tests when the teachers don't .

I think it's great they have to do that. The standard of English of many TAs (and teachers too for that matter) is shocking. "I done this," is my biggest bugbear. Not all, but a significant proportion.

Unfortunately the vast majority of TAs in my experience don't do any qualifications due to lack of funding. Many want to but they are not given the opportunity.

Yes, OP, definitely raise this with the headteacher (who employs the staff). The mistakes are pretty appalling- that’s like the mathematical equivalent of not knowing how to read. Or a teacher who doesn’t know any French at all being asked to teach all the French lessons everyday (as opposed to just supervising the children for one lesson when a teacher is off I’ll).

@TeenMinusTests ah bless her! All the best to her for the next couple of months

[quote Theydidntwin]@ThreeTimesThree

I don’t disagree that some primary teachers may not have basic arithmetic skills. However:

“Supply teacher “teaching” fractions last week. And saying 1/2 x2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25, 2/4 x 2 = 4/8. She was trying to teach equivalent fractions. DS told the teacher those were incorrect, and she was just rewriting the same fraction but using different numbers.”

Equivalent fractions are the same fraction, in that they represent the same part of a whole, so the aim is to write the same fraction using different numbers.

So, when the supply teacher writes 1/2 x 2 she should be writing 1/2 x 2/2 (ie multiply both top and bottom by 2) , giving 1/2 = 2/4. 1/5 x 5/5 = 5/25, and so on.
The examples would be clearer if they didn’t all use the denominator as the multiplier, for example 1/2 = 3/6 (x by 3/3, which is equivalent to x 1/1 or 1).

This would look much clearer if I could use proper formatting and write fractions as

one number
——————
over another number

rather than having to use /.[/quote]
Agree that this is what is being taught. Multiplication of fractions would not be taught in year 3. The teacher was trying to show that if the numerator and the denominator are both multiplied by the same number, it will equal an equivalent fraction. It is better taught with visuals and language before official recording.
It is poor practice to be recording it in this way and mathematically incorrect. When I was maths lead, I had a big push on correct use of operation and equalities signs as these sort of mistakes are surprisingly common in primary teaching. The equals sign is often abused! The equations as the teacher has written them are incorrect as they are not equal. One half is equal to two quarters, one half multiplied by two is not.
It is poor practice and you should raise it with the head.

Why are some saying her answers were correct?

1/2 x 2 is not the same as 1/2 x 2/2

And I’m struggling to understand why she would be using multiplication to teach equivalent fractions.

Surely it would be easier to show that 1/2 = 2/4, or 1/5 = 5/25 first showing it visually and then showing that you can take the equivalent fraction and divide it down into its lowest denominator making its numerator and denominator the same as the example fraction.

??

Typo- ill not I’ll

This is terrible. There is no excuse for teachers to not have even the basic maths skills. They are teaching young, impressionable children.
Anyone else making such basic errors repeatedly in their jobs would lose their jobs. There is absolutely no excuse.

@LaLaLandIsNoFun in Year 3 you would start with visual representations of equivalence first, but the method you describe of dividing down is much more complex than teaching them that they can multiply the numerator and denominator by the same amount. They very quickly cotton on that as long as you do the same thing to both you end up with an equivalent, which is the message you want to get across.

The supply teachers method is incorrect though!

Haven't read the whole of the FT, but:

1/2 x 2 = 1/2 x 2/1 = 2/2 = 1

1/5 ×5 = 1/5x5/1 = 5/5 = 1

And very well done to OP's ds!

Can you show me what you mean @Plantlover23, because I would skip from visual representations to then trying dividing down (so I’m missing a step) and I have a feeling I’ll be needing your method to help my DD understand.

To the people who know more about this than me - where is the current cohort of primary teachers being recruited from? Do they need a specialised degree / any specific credentials?

[quote Theydidntwin]@ThreeTimesThree

I don’t disagree that some primary teachers may not have basic arithmetic skills. However:

“Supply teacher “teaching” fractions last week. And saying 1/2 x2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25, 2/4 x 2 = 4/8. She was trying to teach equivalent fractions. DS told the teacher those were incorrect, and she was just rewriting the same fraction but using different numbers.”

Equivalent fractions are the same fraction, in that they represent the same part of a whole, so the aim is to write the same fraction using different numbers.

So, when the supply teacher writes 1/2 x 2 she should be writing 1/2 x 2/2 (ie multiply both top and bottom by 2) , giving 1/2 = 2/4. 1/5 x 5/5 = 5/25, and so on.
The examples would be clearer if they didn’t all use the denominator as the multiplier, for example 1/2 = 3/6 (x by 3/3, which is equivalent to x 1/1 or 1).

This would look much clearer if I could use proper formatting and write fractions as

one number
——————
over another number

rather than having to use /.[/quote]
Haven’t read the full thread, but this person has got it.

She was teaching equivalent fractions, so you do multiply both numbers by something. The issue is the way she has recorded it - she should have shown that both the numerator and denominator get multiplied by something, not written as a x calculation. Year 3 children do not multiply fractions by integers or by other fractions (these are y5/6 objectives) and I’d be surprised to have any year 3s in my class know how to do this (OPs son is obviously fairly exceptional in maths). For most y3s, the way she recorded it would make sense to them, in the context she was teaching it, as they have no other knowledge of actually multiplying fractions. That said, it is mathematically incorrect so should be avoided.

As a former primary teacher, I think it’s ludicrous that all primary teachers are expected to teach Maths. Having a B or C at GCSE and passing their numeracy test doesn’t mean you’re any good at Maths, let alone able to teach it. You can’t effectively teach a subject you’re not confident about yourself. It really is that simple IMO.

Having said that, I guess the problem is they can’t recruit enough Maths teachers for secondary school let alone needing even more for primary schools.

Do bring this up.
My DS had a high school teacher tell him that, if a flight is 5 hours long, the place you are going to is 5 hours behind or in front in time depending on whether you go east or west.

@SatyajitRayFan
There are certainly no excuses in this instance. But it is also symptomatic of a wider problem in primary schools, Why are we getting people who are not very good at an important subject to teach it to children? If you’re looking for a violin teacher, you wouldn’t prioritize the one who dabbled for at it for five years as a student. You’d want someone who can play it at a very competent level.

@LaLaLandIsNoFun Of course! The picture is how my Year 3s were taught this year after they understood a concrete and visual method. In questions they are often given 2/4 = ?/8 so if they can identify the relationship between the denominators (in this case x2) they can do the same thing to the numerator to find the answer. Year 3 equivalence is fairly simple and the very beginnings of understanding that equivalent = the same, so it is often a bit more of a fill in the blanks activity rather than a more open ended question an older child might get like...find 5 equivalent fractions for 3/5 or similar. Your division would be a great way to stretch though, as if you gave them a question like 10/12 = ?/6 a bright child would be able to work out this time you’ve divided your denominator by 2 so they need to do the same thing to the numerator to find equivalence. I hope that makes sense

@Coolwaterscoolcool

The teacher is correct but the way she has illustrated it might be confusing.

the teacher is not correct - she may be doing the right thing but she’s writing something completely different. She hasn’t demonstrated it in a confusing manner, she’s demonstrated it completely wrong

@forinborin you need a teaching qualification to be a primary school teacher in LA schools, a PGCE or similar. Academies and private schools have more flexibility about how they choose to recruit. Although as many are saying the requirement for GCSE Maths to enroll on a PGCE isn’t high and the numeracy test fairly simple. The teacher training course to gain Qualified Teacher Status will cover Maths subject knowledge in a fair bit of depth but different schools use such different schemes of work to teach it a teacher could find themselves using something very different to what they were trained to use. Not that I see that as an excuse!

@forinborin (saying that I have never actually seen a job advert for an academy or private school that doesn’t require Qualified Teacher Status)

@forinborin

To the people who know more about this than me - where is the current cohort of primary teachers being recruited from? Do they need a specialised degree / any specific credentials?

Fully qualified primary teachers will have either completed an undergraduate route with QTS or a postgraduate PGCE or other training course that leads to QTS. They will have at least grade c in English, maths and science at GCSE or an equivalent. If they started their course 4 or more years ago, they would have sat additional numeracy and literacy tests.

A short term supply teacher may not have QTS, though.

The problem is that teaching is not really an attractive profession for a lot of people at the moment. Faced with shortages, the government started to dumb down the entry requirements.

I would raise it with the head, but for short term supply, it is often very much a case of who is available. For the sake of ten days, the head is unlikely to recruit anyone else, unfortunately.

Ah - now THAT makes complete sense @Plantlover23

The teacher really was messing it up by including the multiplication within the equation.

Now I get it. Thank you.