To be concerned about primary teachers not having basic maths skills?

[ThreeTimesThree]

My year 3’s DS teachers are repeatedly making mistakes, and I’m wondering if I need to raise this officially with the school.

His usual class teacher (who is now on leave) was unable to read a scale over 100cm. (This was during home schooling and I happened to be with him at the time) So when the scale went to 100cm and 3cm, she said “130cm and 3cm”. And for the next example made a similar mistake. My son said this was not right and what the answer should be. To which she apologised, and just skipped the rest of these similar questions.

Another teacher he’s had since April was unable to do fractions; so saying 3/4 of 120 is 30, 5/6 of 180 is 30, 2/3 of 90 is 30. My DS pointed out these were incorrect and told her what the answers should be. So at first she insisted her working were right But DS insisted it was not right and explained his working out,she double checked and said yes and made the class rub their work out and rewrite it down. She’s now off isolating so DS currently has a supply teacher.

Supply teacher “teaching” fractions last week. And saying 1/2 x2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25, 2/4 x 2 = 4/8. She was trying to teach equivalent fractions. DS told the teacher those were incorrect, and she was just rewriting the same fraction but using different numbers.

But the teacher insisted she was right. My son said 1/2 x 2 is the same as 1/2 + 1/2 which equals 1. But she replied, “we are not doing addition, we are doing multiplication.” And told DS he was confused. DS has amazing maths skills and came home that day very upset as the teacher was teaching them incorrect maths.

I had a word with the teacher the following morning to say DS was upset and if she could tell me what she had taught. And sure enough she said she was teaching the children 1/2 x 2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25. I politely pointed out these didn’t look right, and if she could review what she was teaching them. But the next day she did the same mistakes again, as my DS informed me.

Just wondering if I should raise this with the head? Surely teachers need to have better maths skills than this?

@forinborin

OP, we had similar - with the ruler exercises the teacher measuring lengths from 1, not from 0 on the ruler. Even worse, when pointed out the mistake, she kept insisting that it was a change in approach since I was in school. Even worse, many parents went with that explanation, as - "oh yeah, it's been years since we did maths".

Wow. I wonder how that teacher measured 1cm then!

Yes there are some wrong examples on this thread from people trying to correct the teacher! You absolutely do not need a common denominator to multiply.

@Rangoon

I despair that any adult who feels qualified to comment on maths could ever think that when the supply teacher writes 1/2 x 2 she should be writing 1/2 x 2/2 (ie multiply both top and bottom by 2) , giving 1/2 = 2/4. 1/5 x 5/5 = 5/25, and so on. How can you not know that 2/2 is 1 and not 2? I could and did teach a six year old with learning difficulties that if the numerator and denominator were the same then the number was 1.

OP has said the teacher is teaching equivalent fractions so multiplying by 2/2, 3/3 etc is correct. They all equal 1 which is the point - changing the numbers within the fraction but still keeping the original proportion.

Perhaps make sure you know that you are correct before you start despairing about the maths skills of others.

@monkeysox

If she was teaching equivalent fractions she is correct but she hasn't explained that by x both top and bottom by 5 you are actually x by 5/5 which =1

The teacher might have known in her head, but in maths you actually have to write down what you mean. You can't write x 2 if you mean x2/2.

Sorry, not writing what you mean in maths is a bugbear of mine.

If DD has to do 3+4+5 she will write 3+4=7+5=12 which I pull her up on but she still does it.

I would raise it.

I’m guessing the teacher skipped over the rest of the similar ones they got wrong and wanted to relearn it themselves.

I’m surprised they are already learning this in year 3, pretty remarkable. My sons about to join reception and I can’t imagine him ever doing things like this!!

@TeenMinusTests

Sorry, not writing what you mean in maths is a bugbear of mine.

If DD has to do 3+4+5 she will write 3+4=7+5=12 which I pull her up on but she still does it.

I fought this battle with ds. He's now y9, don't know if I won or lost!

Definitely raise it - they are there to teach your child, not misdirect him and three teachers in a row incapable of doing basic maths is not a one off!

I went to university with some BA QTS students, they mostly panicked about the maths part (I think there was a test at one point).

I am guessing it probably isn't too hard to cram for the QTS test, and then not think too much about it after that.

As stated it should not be that hard.

What I didn't like when I was a school was a lot on the non maths/science teachers would almost brag that they weren't a maths person or they just didn't get maths. The way the world is going if you want s decent job an understanding of maths will be one of the most important factors.

@OverTheRainbow88

I would raise it.

I’m guessing the teacher skipped over the rest of the similar ones they got wrong and wanted to relearn it themselves.

I’m surprised they are already learning this in year 3, pretty remarkable. My sons about to join reception and I can’t imagine him ever doing things like this!!

We start the groundwork for fractions in year 1 and equivalence is first taught in year 2. They are more than capable of this if the groundwork has been laid well.

They’re shocking but the lack of teachers means anyone and anyone can get through the net now!

@Theydidntwin is right, if the supply teacher was teaching equivalent fractions she wasn’t actually wrong as the fractions should be the same and you do work out equivalent fractions by multiplying the numerator and denominator by the same number. E.g 1/2 = 2/4 - multiply both the numerator and denominator by 2.

Her only real mistake was putting the multiplication sign between the fractions as it makes it appear like they are multiplying rather than finding equivalence. The only way I would change this would be to illustrate using arcs across the top of the fraction and bottom of the fraction that I am multiplying the numerator and denominator by the same number 🤷🏻‍♀️ So I assume the reason she came back the next day and ignored your DS was because she was actually correct

The other two are pretty terrible however! Especially for a normal class teacher he has all the time I would definitely mention it to someone. Maths is often very heavily resourced now and there’s huge amounts of support for teachers for subject knowledge, so there isn’t really any excuse for them not to know.

@monkeysox

If she was teaching equivalent fractions she is correct but she hasn't explained that by x both top and bottom by 5 you are actually x by 5/5 which =1

No, she is not correct. No, in mathematics you cannot shorthand "2/2" by "2" because the topic is equivalent fractions and "*2" should be understood in this context as "multiply both the numerator and denominator by 2".

I would raise it, certainly about the supply. The class teacher I feel for, I was lucky enough not to have to do love lessons, only recorded videos and they were bad enough! It's a horrible, stressful way of teaching which doesn't show the best of most of us.

I think there is currently a shortage of supply teachers. I've had some shockers in the last few months, often secondary trained in random subjects (art and geography most recently). They just haven't the subject knowledge or experience of the primary curriculum. I am sure they are good enough in secondary schools but I dread having them cover my class. Unless I know who is covering I avoid leaving maths and English where at all possible.

If you tell the head they may be able to avoid them in future. Or maybe not if they are desperate, but at least you have tried!

Please tell the HOD/Head. An adult’s feelings should not be prioritised over children’s education. The supply teacher is not competent, she/he should also be reported.

I'd report it asap. Teacher or not these are the most basic maths skills. If they can't do fractions, then what happens next?
And one can say "no teacher can be an expert in everything" on a higher level, but not in primary school. These are all basics and the teachers are trained to teach them. The fact that the supply teacher refused to check her calculations is itself very wrong.

"So, when the supply teacher writes 1/2 x 2 she should be writing 1/2 x 2/2"
No, 1/2x2 equals 1/2x2/1.

Definitely raise this. Unfortunately primary schools often put their weakest teachers in years 3 and 4 but that is no excuse!

Definitely report this. The teacher needs some support to build their own confidence with the subject. Fortunately your child is aware of the mistakes and has a parent to help them, how many others in the class do?

You would not accept a teacher with poor literacy skills, numeracy should be no different.

@TeenMinusTests I agree with you! There are a few ways of correctly writing what she meant, and that wasn’t it. However her answers were correct. It is the least terrible of the 3 examples considering she may well be trained in something different!

On another note, sometimes they are actually taught to write like your DD does. We use a Singaporean maths scheme and they are encouraged to write like that as it teaches them the mental strategies they can use to be more fluent as they get older. I agree with you Maths should be written clearly but you may be fighting a losing battle if she’s getting the message from elsewhere

The teacher is correct but the way she has illustrated it might be confusing.

Equivalent fractions are just that, so 1/2, 2/4, 4/8 are all the same.

The explanation needs work, but essentially when you multiply or divide both the top and bottom by the same number, the fraction keeps it's value.

So I think in her example she was actually multiplying the top and bottom figures by 2 to make an equivalent fraction, so
1/2 (multiply the 1 x 2 = 2, and then multiply the 2 x 2 = 4) which gives 2/4. Obviously this should have (could have) been verbally explained in the lesson, but possibly should have been explicitly written down.

Supply teachers can be shockingly bad. If they've never worked in a school before or had any up to date training. It really bugs me sometimes. You can get brilliant ones, but it's lack of training and working in a permanent setting that doesn't help.
I also think the last question on equivalent fractions was perhaps worded badly. There is a method of teaching now that requires ordering fractions in sizes. It is easier to convert all fractions so they have the same denominator or numerator. Which is where it is useful to know that 5/6 is the same as 10/12. And the method behind that. If that makes sense (this is year 4/5 work though, not year 3)

I also think the first question which is done via zoom, was probably not a true reflection of her teaching. It also sounds like a bit of a flaky year if they are on their third teacher. It happens sometimes. Circumstances beyond anyone's control and it's how the school handles it that is the main thing. Speak to the head if you're worried and see how it's handled.

Teachers often have to teach outside their specialism. I taught 5 different subjects last year and I am in secondary. The secret is thorough preparation. There is no excuse for making such basic errors in a lesson.

Wow. I wonder how that teacher measured 1cm then!
What is even more mind boggling is that she does not have any similar issues with the number line (effectively, a simpler ruler) when doing other numerical examples with the class. I am also sure she would not have issues in real life with using a measuring tape and finding the correct number on it either. It is just the physical ruler that has these issues.
And everyone has brain fog now and then - I certainly do - what I didn't like is that she tried to use then her "authority" to insist it is just a difference in approach, and my maths must be outdated. Applied mathematics is actually my profession.
To be honest, I just took it as a given now that the school just won't teach maths to my children - we are learning it at home + extracurriculars.

@ThreeTimesThree

My year 3’s DS teachers are repeatedly making mistakes, and I’m wondering if I need to raise this officially with the school.

His usual class teacher (who is now on leave) was unable to read a scale over 100cm. (This was during home schooling and I happened to be with him at the time) So when the scale went to 100cm and 3cm, she said “130cm and 3cm”. And for the next example made a similar mistake. My son said this was not right and what the answer should be. To which she apologised, and just skipped the rest of these similar questions.

Another teacher he’s had since April was unable to do fractions; so saying 3/4 of 120 is 30, 5/6 of 180 is 30, 2/3 of 90 is 30. My DS pointed out these were incorrect and told her what the answers should be. So at first she insisted her working were right But DS insisted it was not right and explained his working out,she double checked and said yes and made the class rub their work out and rewrite it down. She’s now off isolating so DS currently has a supply teacher.

Supply teacher “teaching” fractions last week. And saying 1/2 x2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25, 2/4 x 2 = 4/8. She was trying to teach equivalent fractions. DS told the teacher those were incorrect, and she was just rewriting the same fraction but using different numbers.

But the teacher insisted she was right. My son said 1/2 x 2 is the same as 1/2 + 1/2 which equals 1. But she replied, “we are not doing addition, we are doing multiplication.” And told DS he was confused. DS has amazing maths skills and came home that day very upset as the teacher was teaching them incorrect maths.

I had a word with the teacher the following morning to say DS was upset and if she could tell me what she had taught. And sure enough she said she was teaching the children 1/2 x 2 = 2/4, 1/5 x 5 = 5/25. I politely pointed out these didn’t look right, and if she could review what she was teaching them. But the next day she did the same mistakes again, as my DS informed me.

Just wondering if I should raise this with the head? Surely teachers need to have better maths skills than this?

This is definitely white rose year 3 maths. Their small steps do teach children to read as 100cm and 20cm. This is built upon in year 4 when they start fractions.

They weren't multiplying fractions, they were finding equivalent fractions where you multiply the denominator and numerator by the same integer. Multiplying fractions isn't until year 5.

Finding fractions of an amount is wrong but the first part is finding the unit fraction then using this to find an non-unit fraction.

The teacher should be clearly able to explain this.