To think it's a bit sad that both people nowadays need to work to afford a household?

[Lowef]

I know this isn't a popular opinion on MN but was thinking how rubbish it is that today mostly both parents need to be working to be able to afford the basics of food, clothing, rent. mortgage etc for the family without being on the breadline.

I have really fond memories of playing with my mum in the garden planting pots, watching her cook whilst i sat on the worktop. She'd collect us from school everyday and on fridays she'd have baked some warm muffins, sweet buns which were still warm and fresh from the oven. She'd give some to my friends too. She taught me so many things like sewing, cooking, gardening (she was very green fingered), growing veg. She spent alot of time with us kids and i look back at those days really fondly.

In comparison I am nothing like this with my children - I just don't seem to have the time and energy for the things she did. I can't bake cupcakes in time for the kids school pick up as they're in the after school club. Dinner is a quick whisk up whatever I have in the freezer / fridge , I'm too frazzled and tired for spending lots of time with the kids. DH is the same.

In an an ideal world i would love to be a SAHM and have more energy and time for my family and myself too instead of just rushing through life. The years are going by so fast and most of my energy and life is taken up by work. The children are growing up so quickly.

Not sure if anyone else feels the same too or if ill get an MN roasting!

@cushioncovers

*There is a huge difference between a woman who chooses to continue or pursue a career and a woman who needs to work because the family needs the money.

Can you explain these differences?*

My mother worked as well as my father because if she didn't we didn't eat.

My auntie and uncle both worked full time even tho his salary was very good, he owned his own company. My auntie went back to work full time in the Nhs ASAP after having each of her 3 kids (he wanted 2 kids she insisted on having 3)because she found it tedious being as home as a sahm. ( her words) She wanted the nice lifestyle, the house, the kids and the career. They had a cleaner an ironing lady and neither of them ever cooked . So some people including women do actually want their cake and eat it. Their kids, my cousins, spent their entire life either at school or with a child minder. But they had nice clothes, holidays and toys.

This sounds an awful lot like you're judging women who choose to go out to work.

I think parents (specifically mothers, let's me honest) should have the choice to work based on desire rather than need.

So who will pay for them and their children if both parents decide to work only if and when they want to?

I have a cleaner twice a week and send my ironing out
We could manage on my DH ‘s wage but I worked hard for my career an couldn’t give it up or be financially dependent
We still do lots of baking etc,I use some of the extra money to buy time ie the cleaner etc so all the time I am not working to have fun time with my DC

I think life involves sacrifice and whether you are a SAHP or WOHP there are sacrifices we make on both personal and societal levels.

I actually think that if a couple really want one parent to be at home they can make it work, but lots of people Dean the sacrifice too big - having to have a smaller house, in an area they'd prefer not to live, do without things etc. If it weren't possible to do on very low incomes then no areas would have SAHP on benefits managing it. I'm not saying that living on benefits is desirable or a great standard of living, but if being a SAHP is the ultimate goal, it's possible.

I can't imagine anything (on a day to day basis, diasters notwithstanding) worse than being a SAHP, but that's just me!

Society does not value the stay at home parent

That's because a stay at home parent is generally not contributing to society. It's only of value to their own family. Nothing wrong with being a stay at home parent, but it's of no value to society in general

So let's get this straight, there is no value to society in raising children, helping with their education and ensuring they are well balanced and mentally strong?

I personally think it's better that adult humans have their own finances and own lives outside "the household". It was too inequitable before and it's only one or two generations ago where intelligent, capable women were forced to give up work when they got married - something which I find unacceptable.

I think work life balance is always a concern but I would much rather see both adults working 3 or 4 days a week (or full-time if they want to).

So let's get this straight, there is no value to society in raising children, helping with their education and ensuring they are well balanced and mentally strong?

So you are saying that parents who work can't also do those things?

Oh god, it’s not true though, please read those articles I posted - people live with modern appliances because we live in modern times, it’s absolute bollocks to pretend that people in the 1940s lived as frugally as possible out of some moral connection to the past.

I don't think anyone is suggesting people have ever lived frugally out of some moral connection to the past. This thread is talking about affordability.
Despite us having similar jobs to my parents, my dh and I can 'afford' a lot more luxury than my parents ever could. My parents didn't choose to be frugal, they were out of necessity.

She wanted the nice lifestyle, the house, the kids and the career. They had a cleaner an ironing lady and neither of them ever cooked . So some people including women do actually want their cake and eat it.

Would you say that most men - who go out to work while someone else cooks, cleans and irons - also want their cake and eat it?

@dotdashdashdash - have a look at all the teens with mental health issues. A large proportion has been in nursery from an early age.
Anyone who knows a bit about child developed is aware of the importance of the first 3 years. Having a SAHP is beneficial.

It's our current economic climate & increase woman wanting to work that forces the wage v living cost decline.
I do know that my view is not shared by many MN users...

She wanted the nice lifestyle, the house, the kids and the career. They had a cleaner an ironing lady and neither of them ever cooked . So some people including women do actually want their cake and eat it.

I'm not sure what post this quote came from for the full context but I'm not sure how this is "wanting cake and eating it" it's very much want I'm wanting and achieving 😂

@name674398

We live such grand lifestyles compared to what they did even 70 years ago, circa WW2, when heating the house was a pure luxury, as was electricity. Now we are wanting two cars, bedrooms for each child, restaurant meals, holidays, etc....Our houses are furnished extensively and so on.

Why is this a bad thing? Wanting more? Do you think people in the 1940s harped back to the Victorian ages and how they didn't have electricity so they should be grateful for that and not worry about heating? I'm so glad to live in this era with the amount of leisure time we have and infinite possibilities to enjoy it.

Wanting more is not necessarily a bad thing. It's the wanting so much more and a lot of it being pretty unnecessary.

If couples want to both work when they have children that is, of course, fine but so many moaning that they have no choice when it's just not true.

You don't have to have a house with enough bedrooms for each child to have their own. You don't have to have the full sky package with cinema and sports. You don't have to have the most update mobile phone. You don't have to have expensive holidays every year.

Its not SAHP or working parent that is the issue, it is having the choice for either parent to have either role. Its this choice we have lost in most cases

@Ylvamoon I share your view and I know it goes down like a lead balloon on Mumsnet.
Huge benefits to children being at home with a consistent caregiver for the early years. I work part time so my youngest is with a CM 3 days now and it PAINS me. We think it's the best decision financially and longer term for me to keep my job, but if I could pause my job and return in 3 years I would.

@BackforGood

Oh god, it’s not true though, please read those articles I posted - people live with modern appliances because we live in modern times, it’s absolute bollocks to pretend that people in the 1940s lived as frugally as possible out of some moral connection to the past.

I don't think anyone is suggesting people have ever lived frugally out of some moral connection to the past. This thread is talking about affordability.
Despite us having similar jobs to my parents, my dh and I can 'afford' a lot more luxury than my parents ever could. My parents didn't choose to be frugal, they were out of necessity.

But you and your husband also have a much greater selection of luxurious goods to choose from. People are talking about life in the 1970s being somehow morally superior to life in 2021 because people now spend money on takeaway coffees and entertainment, but don’t acknowledge the massive disparity between housing affordability and wages even though it’s hugely different now.

If couples want to both work when they have children that is, of course, fine but so many moaning that they have no choice when it's just not true.You don't have to have a house with enough bedrooms for each child to have their own. You don't have to have the full sky package with cinema and sports. You don't have to have the most update mobile phone. You don't have to have expensive holidays every year.

That's subjective though, I personally think having a bedroom each is really important especially for teenagers. I think travel is a really important and wonderful part of living life to the fullest and my most favourite thing about being a parent is taking my children to different countries and giving them amazing experiences. No they aren't strictly "necessary" but how much in what we do in life is just necessary? We could go back to the caves if it's just about survival.

No moaning here though, DH and I love our careers and we ensured we did jobs we enjoyed and would bring in good money for us to also live the life we want to live outside of work, without begrudging work itself. I do not believe one of us needed to stay home to raise well balanced and loved children, DH and I were raised in happy homes with working parents, so as they say, proof is in the pudding. Just as you say much of what people want isn't necessary, I also believe having a SAHP isn't necessary. It's just another option.

@Ylvamoon

Society does not value the stay at home parent

That's because a stay at home parent is generally not contributing to society. It's only of value to their own family. Nothing wrong with being a stay at home parent, but it's of no value to society in general

So let's get this straight, there is no value to society in raising children, helping with their education and ensuring they are well balanced and mentally strong?

All good parents should do that. Working or not. SAHMs don’t produce better children. They just opt out of the workplace and pretend that it’s for their kids benefit rather than their own.

@Drunkenmonkey - thank you. Glad there are parents who think like me!
I have always worked P/T since DC was 2... I think working for woman is important as that is how things are now with providing a decent standard of living, pensions ect.
But at the same time, it can have an negative effect on DC further down the line. Something we need to at least acknowledge.

So let's get this straight, there is no value to society in raising children, helping with their education and ensuring they are well balanced and mentally strong?

I do all of this and work - I hate this assumption they working parents aren't also playing a very active role in bringing up their children.

People also glamorous sahm. Sahm was a luxery where I grew up in a poor area. Most mums cleaned, ironed, worked pt in shop, did child minding. Couldnt live on a pit salary

We’ve lost as much as we’ve gained, in many ways. Sometimes you wonder what the point of it all is. Sorry, does that sound miserable 🤭

You cannot win.
When I worked full time I was accused by stay at home mums as being ' uncommitted to my child'
When I became a stay at home mum I was accused of being feckless.
Whatever you do in life will upset someone.

Lots of interesting points but I agree that wages have stagnated and that house prices and expenses have increased.

I have really fond memories of playing with my mum in the garden planting pots, watching her cook whilst i sat on the worktop. She'd collect us from school everyday and on fridays she'd have baked some warm muffins, sweet buns which were still warm and fresh from the oven. She'd give some to my friends too. She taught me so many things like sewing, cooking, gardening (she was very green fingered), growing veg. She spent alot of time with us kids and i look back at those days really fondly.

It sounds as though you had an idyllic childhood. But I was a sahm for many years and this certainly wasn’t my reality. I did bake with the kids (under sufferance), but I don’t sew and I hate gardening. It’s a running joke in our house that my dh would make a far better wife than I do as he is much better at traditionally ‘homemaker’ tasks (his childhood was probably similar to yours). If only he could see mess.

While I loved spending time with the dc, I found that I tended to deal with the drudgery and practical things such as homework, ferrying to and from activities and appointments, arranging play dates and cooking. Dh who worked very long hours - would spend much more time doing the activities you mentioned above.

There isn’t really anything stopping you from being the same sort of parent as your dm, just plan in time for the weekend.

@mrwalkensir

You can see how it changed when more that one's person income could be considered on a mortgage. Strip out inflation etc and it pretty much doubled housing costs.

This.

This is the issue. This is what caused today's ridiculous situation.