Aibu to not want to move to Canada

[Sjan82]

Dh and I (early 40s) were lucky with good jobs. We kept the jobs floating and focussed heavily on investment returns for the last 15yrs. We are now able to retire early. (Do we have a FIRE group on mumsnet ?)

Dh wants to move to Canada. A couple of our friends moved there and are really happy. His main reasons are : we get to experience new life, our money goes further and kids get access to North American education and job markets (we have a path to citizenship in Canada). He also wants a change I guess. He lost his mom suddenly recently and the push to Canada became stronger after that !

We almost moved last year but cancelled everything last minute as the pandemic hit. Although I broadly agree with him even now, I’m not totally sure. Things bothering me are: We have to uproot the kids. My daughter is in Y8 at a lovely secondary school and made lots of friends. However, We’ve been to Canada on a few holidays and she loves it there. We have family abroad (asia) and they are double travel time away from Canada :(
I quit my job last month and I’m already struggling with withdrawal symptoms. I don’t think DH wants to quit totally either. He has plans to start a Phd program and move into academics. We are thinking we should just pick low stress jobs in smaller towns so we have quick commutes.

Smaller towns was the plan anyway. Can we not achieve it here in the UK? We are currently in the London-Kent border. We can afford a good size house here, but no where close to what we get in Canada for half the money. The money we’ll save on the house is only surplus, it won’t affect our lifestyle or income, but it could be life changing long term if invested for the kids. Dh says “what’s the difference between moving to Leeds vs moving to Canada”. Hmm, I don’t know!

Sorry I sound totally confused, because I am. I was really onboard and enthusiastic about canada move before the pandemic but now think I just want “normal” like everyone else. My normal is (was?) our city jobs, our old house, our lovely child minder, etc. Two years ago, we hated the 1+ hr commute so much we wanted to move!!

What would you do if you were me? Move or stay? We have time until Jan 2022 to move (if we move after that, we won’t have enough time left on our PR to apply for citizenships).

Option A: Canada. Huge house, friends, mountains, great lifestyle, small town, less congestion, shorter commutes to work, new experiences. This involves uprooting the kids and moving even further from family :(

Option B: stay where we are. Get a nice house spending 1/3rd of our net worth. Local friends, familiarity and Europe holidays. Quicker to visit family abroad. This comes with London commute, congestion etc seriously impacting quality of life.

Option C : Move to smaller towns in the UK. Best of both worlds! Dh doesn’t see why this should be preferred over option A :( We visit family aboard only once a year, it’ll only mean 9+ hours of extra flight time once a year.

AIBU to want option B or C ? I don’t know why though. Just familiarity perhaps.

I live in Calgary, I moved almost 3 years ago from the UK but I was on my own, no kids etc. I love it here but there is a lot I miss about the UK. The winters are brutal and very long - seriously don't underestimate this, we get up to 7 months of snow and that's in the city. It's not cheap, housing wise Calgary isn't as expensive as Toronto but it's not far off if you want to live in a nice neighbourhood. It's a sprawling city, very very spread out, it can take 2 hours to drive from some of the new neighbourhoods in the south of the city to the airport which is in the north east. Cost of living is high - grocery prices are eye watering if you want good quality fresh food. Car insurance, mobile phones, cable/WiFi also much more expensive than in the UK. You'd need to choose schools carefully, quality of education is very variable and overall not brilliant according to friends/acquaintances who are teachers/have kids. I agree with pps who have said that Canadians are friendly but generally on a very superficial level, they tend to keep themselves to themselves and it's very difficult to make close friends. There's not a good sense of community that I've found anywhere here.

Overall I would say that if you don't really want to move here then I wouldn't. It's a massive upheaval and culture shock and even though I love it and was very keen to move here I still get homesick and I honestly don't know if I'll stay here forever. It could be very difficult in future if you want to leave but your children have Canadian partners and kids etc. I would make sure you've spent time here in all seasons, you think you know what the winter will be like, 'yeah it's cold', but until you're living the 4th month of putting on 8 layers to go for a walk, shovelling snow off your driveway every day or the 3rd straight week of temperatures not having got above -20, you really don't!

why don't you rent out your kent house, rent in canada, and give it a couple of years? Then if you decided to stay, sell house.

I would opt for a European country like stodgystollen says!

Options in Europe are considerably more limited now after Brexit... Visas are all dependent on individual countries, but the process isn’t easy.

@Sjan82 Did you want to go to Canada before the pandemic hit?

What’s changed now?

I think you need to decide if this is cold feet, or if you’re feeling nervous because we’ve had a bizarre year, or if you don’t actually want to go anymore.

A lot depends on which part of Canada you want to move to. Some parts are like going back in time 30 years or more compared to the UK. As previous posters have said, the weather can be stunning, but unless you are prepared for some seriously low temperatures in winter, then it might not be for you. My husband really wanted to move after we had visited a few times, but I really didn’t want to as the lack of culture and access to things we take for granted in the UK (theatre, the arts etc) in more rural areas can make it seem very time warped. In some provinces mullets and double denim are alive and well still!

@Sjan82 I’m Canadian and live in a small town in England. I would not go back. Not for all the tea in China. Here’s why:

1. It’s expensive. Very very expensive. This is coming from someone who lived in Toronto but my mum is from northern Ontario. Still expensive there but houses less so.

1. It takes forever and and a day to get anywhere. It’s a big country.

1. Healthcare is worse. Even worse in smaller towns.

1. Did I mention healthcare? Husband was on an emergency waiting list got a specialist and waited a year. We’re talking loss of nerve function emergency.

1. Education is not better. My Aussie educated husband ran rings around me.

1. Education costs a lot of money AND the loans program isn’t as good.

1. More extreme weather. Snow. Heat. With no easy way to entertain kids in these extremes.

1. GMOSs.

I could go on. If you have any questions PM me.

Please just stay in the UK op. You'd not suit Canada.

1. It’s expensive. Very very expensive.

^
Not true. 4 bed detached house that's 45 mins on the train into Montréal cost $425k.

1. It takes forever and and a day to get anywhere. It’s a big country.

True to a point. Or you can fly. And traffic is lighter than in Britain.

1. Healthcare is worse. Even worse in smaller towns.

Not true. I had 2 cesareans by request, no questions asked. Incredible healthcare system.

1. Did I mention healthcare?

We've all just had covid. There's a dedicated covid clinic 2 km drive away from us. Saw a specialist that day.

1. Education is not better. My Aussie educated husband ran rings around me.

^^ Not from what I see. They make kids smart, accountable, confident and kind. Not the same outcome from a typical UK education.

1. Education costs a lot of money AND the loans program isn’t as good.

^Free tuition in Québec for permanent residents. Including McGill.

1. More extreme weather. Snow. Heat. With no easy way to entertain kids in these extremes.

^

Let me see. Ice skating. Skiing. Tubing. Outdoor swimming pools. Biking. Hiking. Canoeing. Camping.

Want me to go on?

@Susannahmoody not everyone lives in Quebec.

I found Canada and Canadians very welcoming. I was visiting friends, not living there. However, one young family member studied there and absolutely loved it. If I had the money I'd move to Vancouver Island - perfect climate and glorious setting with sea, countryside and lots of cultural museums, galleries etc.

The thing about the fierce winters in other parts of Canada - they do appear to 'do things' with their weather, sports wise (ice hockey, skiing and other winter sports), while in the UK we retreat inside more to huddle round the TV.

I do think moving to a place you are unfamiliar with is the right way to go when you want a 'new start' or boost in life. I've certainly done so (though it meant moving hundreds of miles rather than thousands) Walking around familiar surroundings, with familiar friends meant I'd have fallen into a pattern of doing same old activities until I expired 😂. I love the challenge of moving and exploring new areas, it's a bit like feeling I'm on holiday all the time - and speaking from experience, your friends and family will love to visit.

We've found it easy to make new friends wherever we've been and joining in voluntary and other social groupings made it easier. Never regretted moving, family and friends can visit and you can return to see them.

We are all different - only you know if you are up for this new challenge.

Dazed, nope.

After your update ...
Calgary is a definite no no. IMHO.

I'm Canadian living in BC and funnily enough debating whether to make the move back the other way.

You don't sound very enthusiastic about this move. This may be a Covid thing, as I think so many people are feeling unsure about their circumstances right now, but I'd be very careful.

Don't underestimate the potential culture shock especially at your stage of life. You list friends as a reason to move to Canada- would you definitely be moving somewhere where you already have friends?

Have you been to either of the places you're thinking of? They are very different!

Don't underestimate the cost of living here. Salaries are higher but I'd say overall the cost of living in similar. You do get more house and space for your money, though property is generally quite expensive.

If you do come, I would make absolutely sure you leave the door open to go home again. Don't go closing all your bank accounts etc! Are you on the British Expats forum?

I don’t think that you can judge the quality of healthcare when your primary use of it has been requesting and getting caesareans and the response in a global pandemic!

I don’t think you should go OP. It doesn’t sound like your heart is in it. I studied at McGill and harboured a not-so-secret desire to live in Montreal. I couldn’t now, not now I have a husband and children and a career. To much to uproot and too much adjustment (although I confess my situation very different from yours).

And be bored out of their tiny minds which is the experience of people I know who've done it with school aged children. I wonder if the OP is going to end up as a bored SAHP while her husband fulfils his academic dreams?

Would you like salt for that chip on your shoulder?

I’m among those who worked like crazy and invested wisely so I can retire early. I’m not bored in the slightest. Maybe your friends have narrow interests. Don’t judge all FIRE people according to your circle of boring friends.

Having said that, I’m from Montréal and I don’t understand all the love in posts. I would never move back there. My DH is from a different culture and our DCs are mixed race. Quebec is still profoundly racist. I wouldn’t want to inflict that on my family. I say that as a dye in the wool French speaker. The new laws against religious signs are very worrying. More ways to exclude minority women from employment.

I’m in Ontario, been here a decade and a half.

My first thought is that you should check house prices again. Currently the small town I live in is inundated with city leavers and house prices in some desirable parts of town have jumped 100% since the beginning of covid. I always thought I would be priced out of moving back to the U.K. but not any more. Calgary/Alberta generally might not be affected by that for various economic reasons but something to bear in mind if you think you might want to move to a different part of the country.

Groceries definitely more expensive, especially dairy.

Outdoor stuff is great, but it’s definitely not true that all Canadians are outdoorsy. Many go through winter without ever setting foot outside except between the car and the shop. I find the cold very manageable (far less damp) but the period between Feb and May is tough. Flowers out back home in Feb aren’t out here until late April/May. We do a lot of outdoor stuff but I found the climate tough when my kids were little. Summers are very hot and all seasons except winter are shorter. Now I would definitely miss the summers here if I moved back.

Not really impressed with the education but my kids are all incredibly self-aware about their feelings 🤣

Health care has been fine although my dr only works two days a week and is the only one in the surgery, so it’s often really hard to get an appointment. If your doctor is closed or on holiday there’s no locum. Maybe BC and Alberta are different though.

Having said all that, I would do it for a trial. (Make a legal contract with your husband about returning if one of you isn’t happy—I really wish I’d done that.) Is your DD your eldest? Come for year 9 and be prepared to help her catch up with the maths when/if you go back for GCSEs. Or come for three years?

I’ve only visited Kelowna and Calgary, never lived there, but if you love outdoor stuff, especially skiing, I think Kelowna would be nice. Although maybe hard to meet people. It took me around ten years to make real friends, which was tough. Where I am, I also find adults still seem somewhat defined by the stereotype groups you see in American high school films, so friend groups often tend to be created around interests (here are the cyclists, here are the techy gamers, here are the crunchy granola earth mamas), which I struggled with at the beginning. Moving anywhere as an adult is difficult socially really though. If your DH is going to study, maybe you should too—it would be lonely and boring stuck at home while he’s meeting people.

Maybe what you really want is a long holiday and then to go back to your normal life.

What will your children’s immigration options look like. They are going to grow up there, be educated there. Are they going to be allowed to stay and work indefinitely?

Realistically, what does happen if your relationship falters. It may be unlikely, but just suppose your DH gets struck my lightening and develops an entirely different personality. Will your ability to stay in Canada and be with your children be linked to your relationship with him?

We lived in Toronto for two years. I loved the lifestyle but it is very different to the UK, and we came back partly because I couldn’t settle in my career (healthcare, very very different to the NHS, and I found it hard to adjust). I also missed my family, and we found there was less to “do” - as a PP said, people just go to work and go home, there are far fewer post-work drinks, or mum and baby groups, or anything like that.

Lifestyle was amazing though - I would definitely have a second home there post-retirement, or at least spend a lot of time there. It’s a lovely country. I moved over at the same time as three friends, and two stayed out there permanently and love it.

Groceries definitely more expensive, especially dairy

Fuck yes, if you want to spend £20 on a block of entirely unremarkable cheddar, move to Canada!

My mum always used to bring blocks of extra-mature cheddar in her case for us.

If you want the opportunity to have a change why not buy a smaller house in the UK and a beautiful holiday home somewhere in Europe or in the UK on the coast where you could spend long summers. But maybe that’s just my dream!
Or just buy something really beautiful in the UK with some land and live abit of the good life. I think Canada sounds like a massive exhausting challenge when everyone is exhausted with Covid. I think get online start looking at some dream properties in the UK, at least look at what you could get here in a smaller town. I think from what you have said there seems to be very little pull for you for Canada and it’s a massive upheaval for something you sound quite unenthusiatic about. I think have a look at what’s out there in the UK and you might feel really inspired.

I’m Canadian and lived in Calgary for 5 years for work. I will say honestly that unless you’re living near the center of Calgary (where house prices increase quite a bit) I wouldn’t move there. The suburbs of Calgary are a hellish wasteland of repeated house's. Traffic/commute can be really awful. While there is a lot of great sport there is very little culture. All the interesting sports, skiing/mountain biking/horse riding are also expensive. However, already having friends there is a huge plus! I would take a look at where they live though and try to be near them because PP was correct in noting that it is a huge city geographically. If your friends live on the other side of the city it could take you an hour and a half to get to them.

Be prepared for, generally, a quite conservative political mindset.

Don’t underestimate the winters.

I am American, live in Michigan and would KILL to move to Canada.

If you can, do.

(And i say that as one with recent ancestors in the UK and a visceral longing to live there. But Canada has a lot going for it.)

Also OP I understand that it’s hard for your DH having lost his mum fairly recently but make sure to really take your own feelings into account. You have worked hard for this early retirement too you could waste a vast amount of money experimenting on a Canada move. You should feel some real excitement otherwise it’s not worth it and you don’t sound like you have that. In fact if your husband wasn’t talking about it I think it sounds like you would just happily let it go and make plans in the UK. Also the splitting up and then being forced to remain in a country you didn’t consider your home would keep me awake at night. Even if I thought it was highly unlikely the idea that that scenario could potential exist would unsettle me, especially as your husband is much more keen on the move.

I'm a British/Canadian citizen living in BC and have lived here for 16 years. Completely agree with @Susannahmoody about the healthcare, and I am comparing it with my experience in the UK. Several people I know have moved from the Metro Vancouver area to Kelowna as it is somewhat more affordable, and they all seem very happy with living there. House prices in Vancouver are eye watering though, not much cheaper than the UK. The superficial level of friendship comments ring very true for me. In my neighbourhood it can be very cliquey - lots of people born and raised here and seem to have the "We are not interviewing for any new friends at the moment" mentality. All in all though, this is my home and I love it.

I'm Canadian, living in BC. I have friends who moved to Kelowna because it was cheaper than the big city. Lots of traffic and it seems like one enormous strip mall arranged around a lake. Healthcare there is good (big hospital) but my impression of the lifestyle is it's very Stepford and competitive. Lots of blond hair dye and one-upmanship. Basically cut off from the coast during the winter months unless you enjoy driving in icy, snowy mountain passes. Umm...lots of wineries & fruit in season, not too much snow in the city, nice summers.

I wouldn't move from the UK to there or Calgary. The culture shock would be enormous.