DateOfIndeterminateSex

[PosterPerson]

I’ve returned from a first date, still completely unsure of the cis sex of my date.

We met online, the person identified themselves on their bio as a woman. They certainly looked like a woman, and also sounded like a woman the many times we spoke on the phone.

The only doubt came on the day of the actual meeting. There were several markers that I felt might mean my date may have transitioned at some point.

I do not have a problem with people who have transitioned. I would have happily chatted as friends. It’s the doubt I’m unsure of, and I did not ask for fear of causing hurt or awkwardness. If this is the case, I would imagine the person did not mention it because they want to be accepted and live without being barraged with questions at every turn.

In the end, we spent some hours together, had a nice time, swapped thank you texts when we got home. And that is where we are at...

Has this happened to anyone else?

Am I being unreasonable to wish this had been clear to me somehow one way or another?

I honestly don’t think childhood photos will necessarily give you the answer..

It’s shit OP.

I can sympathise with transsexuals because yeah, the fact that they’re transsexual is going to have a massive limiting factor on who will want to have a relationship with them, but lots of us have things about us that will limit our appeal to potential partners. I for example have a disability which some people just don’t want to have to deal with. If I’m going to meet someone then I’ll always tell them first, and while it’s sad for me that it might put some people off, it’s up to them, and I’m not entitled to a relationship with anybody just because I want it.

So yeah, while I have a bit of sympathy that it must be hard, misleading people is not ok, and I’m afraid that if you choose to live in a certain way or do certain things to your body that will severely limit your pool of potential partners, then you need to understand that before you make those changes, and you must accept that it might result in you being less attractive to potential partners.

Having said all that, it’s wholly unreasonable for anybody born male to expect they would be attractive to a lesbian, so on that score they are definitely being U. There are plenty of straight or bisexual women out there so they need to leave lesbians alone.

I'm a lesbian, OP, and well aware of the number of transwomen presenting as lesbians. It's a big issue for women who want same-sex relationships.

I think it's quite an easy decision, frankly. You're clearly unsure of this person and so I'd move on and find someone I didn't have such doubts about. You're doing the classic female thing of blaming yourself/ distrusting yourself for not feeling much enthusiasm for someone who seems to be quite nice. There are loads of quite nice, possibly suitable, possibly quite interesting, even quite lovable people out there — but you deserve someone more than that, don't you?

Move on and enable this other person to move on too. You are allowed boundaries, you are allowed to ask questions and trust your instinct. So many women end up in abusive or destructive relationships out of fear of being unkind or causing offence or because they discount their suspicions. Trust yourself that this person isn't the right one for you. It's not mean or hurtful to say no, this isn't working for me. You don't have to give reasons, you don't have to explain.

@Shedbuilder, great point about blaming and distrust... I don’t think I would have done this except in a suspected trans situation. I think it put me in mind of how I would feel if I was made to feel abnormal or unattractive in some way because of my sex or gender.

Having said that, I have never presented my sex or my sexuality in an ambiguous way during the course of what was quite clearly a date. From that perspective, I would not be surprised if others distanced themselves. I think I feel less guilty now thinking about it that way.

I personally try to actively find those who are interested in and looking for someone like me, I would find nothing appealing about someone who may be put off if they were to learn the truth of who I am.

Still, there is a wider and more accepting pool for lesbians than there is for trans people, that may cause some temptation to borrow time or persuade in some way.

@BrimFullOfAsher

If she was born male but had fully transitioned and had surgery etc, would that still be a deal breaker? Even if she was physically, completely female now?

It's not possible for someone male to ever be completely physically female

Lesbians have same sex relationships not same gender relationships.
If you are open to a relationship with a trans woman then move ahead.
If you aren't then a conversation between both of you around what attracts you to partners may be helpful.
I don't think round about conversations about childhoods etc are a good idea.

"""If she was born male but had fully transitioned and had surgery etc, would that still be a deal breaker? Even if she was physically, completely female now?"""

I'm not sure why some people think MTF 'bottom surgery' makes someone physically female. The results are a pretty poor facsimilie of a natal vagina, maybe from a distance it would look passable but I'm sure up close and personal it would be very obvious.
I'm not a lesbian but I'm reasonably sure a lesbian would prefer a biological woman with a natal vagina? Not a biological man who has had their genitals reconfigured.
OP the onus isn't on you. You shouldn't feel bad. Maybe a second date will reveal more.
Was there a clue in their voice maybe? This is usually the big giveaway.

Very, very few transwomen have surgery so the chances are that they will have male genitalia. Hence all the attempts by people like Riley J Dennis to persuade lesbians that it's transphobic to reject dick. It's homophobic and misogynist behaviour.

Gosh all this handwringing over someone you’ve met once. Not healthy at all.

Yanbu.

If this is the case, I would imagine the person did not mention it because they want to be accepted and live without being barraged with questions at every turn.

This is unacceptable. People need to know this beforehand so they can make an informed choice.

I'd lose my shit if a woman tricked me into getting interested/going out with her, while acting like a man.

If you fancy her, go on a second date. Surely it doesn’t matter where she is on the male to female axis if you get on with her and find her attractive. The only objection I have to trans people is how much they bloody go on about it, as if it’s a substitute for a personality. But she sounds like she doesn’t feel the need, which is a major plus

Leave the OP alone. The OP can reject whoever she wants for whatever reason she chooses.

Somebody’s sex is not trivial. Good for you if you aren’t bothered, but most of us are.

@Whatisthisfuckery

I’m a little confused why everyone is so concerned about this person if they are mtf. Would people be concerned about someone’s feelings under any other circumstances if they were potentially trying to begin a relationship while hiding something so important about themselves? I mean, this person might be lying about who they are, why would anybody think that’s acceptable, let alone be worried about their feelings when they’re found out?

If this person really is female then it’s shitty on them that a situation has been created where women are now forced to be suspicious, for the sake of their own safety, but if this person is trans then they’re trying to mislead the OP into sex or a relationship. I can’t understand why people are so concerned about the feelings of somebody who’d do that.

Sorry OP that you’re having this. This is what I’m afraid of and it’s actually ruining my chances of meeting someone, because I’m actually scared of the same thing happening to me. It’s very depressing that people are more ready to sympathise with the people trying to deceive us, rather than the women who are being put in this horribly awkward, and possibly dangerous situation. Not to mention the fact that it’s just bloody homophobic to try to con same sex attracted people into bed if you’re the opposite sex.

This is all the wrong way round. It’s cool and progressive to be homophobic and sympathise with people who actively try to mislead women into sex and relationships. I think some people need to have a good hard think about their stance on this, because I find it disturbing.

That's not how I'm reading this at all. I'm reading it that people are concerned that if this person was born a woman, she could be upset by being asked if she's a man! I don't think the concern comes from asking a trans person if they're trans. How would you feel if, as a woman, you went on a date and someone asked if you used to be a man because you "act a bit manly"?

None of the ways in which the OP suspects this person might be male are to do with the way they act though, so stop being disingenuous. I’ve already said it’s shit if this person is really a woman, but given that lesbian dating apps are crammed to the gills with transwomen trying to pass themselves off as women, it’s no wonder women are forced to have their guard up. You can just go and direct your guilt tripping at the males who are creating this situation, not the women who are forced to be wary of it. If this person actually is female, maybe you might express your sympathy with her by condemning the males passing themselves off as lesbians, and creating the doubt that is leading to this unfortunate situation.

Thank you for quoting me though. It definitely bears saying twice.

@Whatisthisfuckery

None of the ways in which the OP suspects this person might be male are to do with the way they act though, so stop being disingenuous. I’ve already said it’s shit if this person is really a woman, but given that lesbian dating apps are crammed to the gills with transwomen trying to pass themselves off as women, it’s no wonder women are forced to have their guard up. You can just go and direct your guilt tripping at the males who are creating this situation, not the women who are forced to be wary of it. If this person actually is female, maybe you might express your sympathy with her by condemning the males passing themselves off as lesbians, and creating the doubt that is leading to this unfortunate situation.

This with knobs on. Unless you're a dyke you'll have no idea of how many transwomen there are on lesbian dating sites all hoping that they'll come across a woman too nice, or too scared of causing offence, to say no to them.

Earlier today I heard a radio interview with an intelligent, informed elderly man who's been talked into handing over the passwords for his bank account (and lost all his savings) because in his words, he was too polite to say no.

It's the same mechanism in play. All the pressure is on women to be nice, discount their concerns, and say yes. We are allowed to say no and we don't have to offer reasons or explanations.

So there has been a rise in recent times of transwomen presenting themselves as natal women on lesbian dating apps?

@DrSbaitso, oh yes, a massive number... and that’s just the ones who don’t pass.

Yup: there are those you can spot and then, as the OP has discovered, the ones you can't spot easily. And frankly OP's date, if genuinely female, would know this and it would probably have come up in conversation. It's the one thing that has really got up the noses of the younger, laissez-faire lesbians I know. They are sick of predatory male-bodied people seeking sex with lesbians.

You're deliberately taking what i said wrong. I feel sorry for any woman who is asked if she was born a man. THAT'S the potentially upsetting and embarrassing part. I do see how this is a massive dilemma, but I was pointing out that people's sympathies lie with a woman being asked if she was once a man. Nobody was sympathising with a trans woman being asked if she were born a man. That was my point - that it's women, cis women, that people are feeling for in this situation.
I'm sure you'll find a way to take this the wrong way too, though.

The worlds gone fucking nuts.
Your entitled to know who you are dating and whether they have a penis between their legs while dressing as a woman for god sake. Either bring it up in conversation or stay away if it bothers you that much

Some women are naturally more masculine / androgynous than others. There are also some lesbians that take testosterone but don’t want to be male (went down a reddit rabbit hole one day- no idea how prevalent this is).

I think I’m probably bi and considered dating women for a while but it sounds like a bit of a jungle out there!

@Moonmelodies

You could tell her that you used to be male, and if she responds "yeah me too!" you'll have your answer. Or if she responds "oh cool", or "eww", you can backpedal with "hehe only kidding!".

Do not do this.

It's only been one date. Take it one step at a time, and if you think you would like to take things to the next level then swapping coming - out stories sounds like a good idea.