DateOfIndeterminateSex

[PosterPerson]

I’ve returned from a first date, still completely unsure of the cis sex of my date.

We met online, the person identified themselves on their bio as a woman. They certainly looked like a woman, and also sounded like a woman the many times we spoke on the phone.

The only doubt came on the day of the actual meeting. There were several markers that I felt might mean my date may have transitioned at some point.

I do not have a problem with people who have transitioned. I would have happily chatted as friends. It’s the doubt I’m unsure of, and I did not ask for fear of causing hurt or awkwardness. If this is the case, I would imagine the person did not mention it because they want to be accepted and live without being barraged with questions at every turn.

In the end, we spent some hours together, had a nice time, swapped thank you texts when we got home. And that is where we are at...

Has this happened to anyone else?

Am I being unreasonable to wish this had been clear to me somehow one way or another?

@Angrypregnantlady

Or, I'm presuming you're also a woman. Tell her about when you came out and ask how she came out.

This is a good idea? Once you get to the heart to heart discussion stage she might tell you herself. I have a medical issue I only disclosed when I thought a relationship was going somewhere, about 3 dates in usually.

We’ve already talked about coming out, family acceptance, and other similar things during our many calls before we met. There was ample opportunity for that to come up. There were not any hints at all.

Have you discussed the possibility of children? Could bring up that and see if she says anything about potentially carrying them?

Bit heavy for date two possibly!

I second the poster who mentioned photos of when you were a child/ teen

Get out a few photos from back then, maybe family holiday or something special...Share them with her and see if she sends photos back of her childhood /teenage years

@PosterPerson

...Obviously they may not expect such questions the first days, which is why I have said nothing so far. It seemed maybe intrusive somehow. Especially if the question is being asked with an intention to exclude from something.

I really don't think you should frame not having a relationship with you as "exclusion". That snacks of entitlement (of the other party) and objectifies you. Nobody is entitled to a relationship with anybody. Relationships should be co-created with fully informed consent.

From your description it sounds as if your date is male but that your thinking brain is having a hard time updating that info because you'd spoken so often before meeting that you'd built up a mental image of who the person is. This fantasy vs reality is a pitfall with online friendships and dating I find, regardless of anything to do with trans.

I would think again about your date's smell. If you are not attracted to that smell it is highly unlikely you will have much sexual attraction to them. Even if you are wrong and it turns out they are female.

Lastly please don't feel you are unkind. Your consideration for your date's feelings shines through your post. If your instincts are right about them, by all means feel bad for them. They are caught in a tricky moment in time for trans acceptance and are not necessarily receiving the best advice about how to go about dating. (The transwomen I knew in the arts scene nearly 20 years ago perhaps faced more funny looks in the street but actually seemed much happier than the trans people I hear of now. There's no question they would have attempted to conceal their sex! That would have been so disrespectful to the gay people whose community embraced them).

You’re allowed be attracted to whoever you want. You don’t owe anybody a date or a relationship.

You’ve only had 1 date, somethings not right, move on.

Everyone seems concerned with not potentially upsetting a transitioner who is not being open / honest.

I see it as concern about not potentially hurting a natal woman's feelings! I would be devastated if I was on a date with a woman and she asked "So, were you born male?". The OP just doesn't want to offend or seem demented to a perfectly nice lesbian that she's keen on.

If she's trans, the OP doesn't want to lead her on, which is also perfectly fair.

You COULD tell her about the date she went on before lockdown with a lovely woman who turned out to be trans although you hadn't known at first, and while you respect transwomen greatly, you don't want to be in a sexual relationship with someone who wasn't born a woman, so it was not meant to be and it's so hard to meet gay women that there was no point in wasting each other's time. And then move on with the conversation. Then later be like "so... should we go out again?" and PRESUMABLY she'll move on if she's trans (or doesn't like you! :P).

Also you're not being unkind at all! We're allowed to be choosy about who we have sex with.

And if you're concerned about unkindness, from her perspective, how mortifying to think that someone was only having sex with her out of politeness!

I would think again about your date's smell. If you are not attracted to that smell it is highly unlikely you will have much sexual attraction to them. Even if you are wrong and it turns out they are female.

This is a good idea, give them a good sniff next time you meet and if you aren't attracted to their smell then it doesn't matter either way.

Did you fancy her? Was there a spark? Or is this going to be platonic either way? Will you feel angry/disappointed if you pursue it further but then find this person isn't what you want?

The scent wasn’t unpleasant at all, just someone’s clean natural odour, with maybe a ”wildness”.

I was very attracted initially, as the minutes passed and I noticed some things, I became too busy caught up in a confused state trying to figure things out. I pretty much still feel the same now - I don’t know a quite crucial thing about this person.

There hasn’t been any further contact from her. If I hear no more, I will leave it at that. I hope that wouldn’t be considered ghosting. I would think it’s possible if she’s going through a transition, she may be waiting for me to show further interest and text again first. I mainly think this because at times she seemed a little self conscious, and I had a sense of some sensitivity surrounding her attractiveness / acceptance. A rather endearing almost childlike fragility, but unusual because generally people feel at ease with me after spending so many hours.

If she doesn't contact you either, I don't think that's ghosting. Ghosting would be her contacting you and you never replying.

What did she say when you discussed your experiences of coming out?

I agree. If her circumstances are unique, I just didn’t want to add to how the world sometimes treats people going through this process.

The best outcome is if she doesn’t reach out and feels she was part of the decision making.

It may not be the first time this has happened to her.

I’ve seen it discussed that if the biological status (ok the discussers used cis but I just can’t) matters to a person, that it is the responsibility of the person to ask the romantic interest. If we were to accept that as true, then we should be asking everyone their status it is matters to us. It would to me since my sexuality is based on sex not gender.

So possibly frame it that way. You have been introduced to the idea that it matters you should ask anyone you could see developing feelings for, so you are asking.

If she was born male but had fully transitioned and had surgery etc, would that still be a deal breaker? Even if she was physically, completely female now?

Honestly, if this happens to me I’d just swerve. I don’t much fancy trying to guess if someone is who I think they are, and I can’t be arsed to have to make excuses why I won’t go out with someone because I know the truth will probably result in verbals and name calling. I’ve already been called names and threatened because I stated I wouldn’t go out with a MTF trans, so even a whiff of doubt now and I’m off like a shot.

Sadly this might result in some actual women being avoided, but sadly fr them there are some tw who will lie about who they are and have ruined it for everyone. I’ve actually deleted all my lesbian dating apps for this reason, because I can never be sure if the person I’m talking to is actually female or not, and both I and many lesbian friends have been lied to.

If people were honest up front then surely tey’d save themselves a lot of upset. I mean, surely it’s better to filter out the ones who arent’ interested from the get go, rather than being disappointed later. i’m afraid the whole think feels very dishonest to me, and more than a bit rapey.

@Whatisthisfuckery

Honestly, if this happens to me I’d just swerve. I don’t much fancy trying to guess if someone is who I think they are, and I can’t be arsed to have to make excuses why I won’t go out with someone because I know the truth will probably result in verbals and name calling. I’ve already been called names and threatened because I stated I wouldn’t go out with a MTF trans, so even a whiff of doubt now and I’m off like a shot.

Sadly this might result in some actual women being avoided, but sadly fr them there are some tw who will lie about who they are and have ruined it for everyone. I’ve actually deleted all my lesbian dating apps for this reason, because I can never be sure if the person I’m talking to is actually female or not, and both I and many lesbian friends have been lied to.

If people were honest up front then surely tey’d save themselves a lot of upset. I mean, surely it’s better to filter out the ones who arent’ interested from the get go, rather than being disappointed later. i’m afraid the whole think feels very dishonest to me, and more than a bit rapey.

This.

I think you could look at it another way and decide that you clearly don't have the 'right' chemistry with this person regardless. Which is true.

I would be surprised if your instincts were incorrect by the way - there are so many subconscious elements to the very primal way in which we know what natal sex someone is, no matter how they present themselves or even how much surgery they have had.

Natal would be a better term than 'cis', I think. Such a ridiculously badly chosen term, that one is embarrassing!

know what natal sex someone

No need for the word natal before sex. Sex is binary and immutable even for people with DSD. Gender on the other hand.......

@BrimFullOfAsher

If she was born male but had fully transitioned and had surgery etc, would that still be a deal breaker? Even if she was physically, completely female now?

Would she be physically female? She might have a body that resembles a female one externally, but it wouldn't be of the reproductive sex class capable of producing ova.

I do think you have a right to know, before any intimacy.

Perhaps you could say to the date " I felt as if there was something important that you were holding back , have I picked that uop right?"
That gives them an opening.

If they don;t take it then perhaps you'll need to say " I enjoy meeting you and would like to remain friends, but I don't see us turning into anything else.".

@YoniAndGuy, bottom line is yes now the chemistry has become off in some way. Even if it’s not the sex issue (the signs were too borderline to be absolutely sure), then there may possibly be something else underlying that I wouldn’t guess at right now.

I will respond if she texts again, but it might be easier on the pair of us if she does not.

I just wish I had some clarity, or we had not ended up meeting up. It makes me feel like a bit of a judg-y / hostile or closed minded person to feel a bit of discomfort with this, I’d rather have not been in this position at all.

I’m a little confused why everyone is so concerned about this person if they are mtf. Would people be concerned about someone’s feelings under any other circumstances if they were potentially trying to begin a relationship while hiding something so important about themselves? I mean, this person might be lying about who they are, why would anybody think that’s acceptable, let alone be worried about their feelings when they’re found out?

If this person really is female then it’s shitty on them that a situation has been created where women are now forced to be suspicious, for the sake of their own safety, but if this person is trans then they’re trying to mislead the OP into sex or a relationship. I can’t understand why people are so concerned about the feelings of somebody who’d do that.

Sorry OP that you’re having this. This is what I’m afraid of and it’s actually ruining my chances of meeting someone, because I’m actually scared of the same thing happening to me. It’s very depressing that people are more ready to sympathise with the people trying to deceive us, rather than the women who are being put in this horribly awkward, and possibly dangerous situation. Not to mention the fact that it’s just bloody homophobic to try to con same sex attracted people into bed if you’re the opposite sex.

This is all the wrong way round. It’s cool and progressive to be homophobic and sympathise with people who actively try to mislead women into sex and relationships. I think some people need to have a good hard think about their stance on this, because I find it disturbing.

@whatisthisfuckery, this had never happened to me before, and now that it has, I think a lot of my approach may change. I may ask the question politely, early on before meeting, whether I am not sure or I'm 100% sure. I wouldn’t want to go through this handwringing again.