To think a company can't demote you after stress leave?

[GreenHeritier]

Hi all, posting here for traffic and have NCed to protect friend's anonymity.

A close friend of mine has been on stress leave for 5 months following a burnout. Her role was a high-pressure, high-responsibility managerial role running a large team. She is now feeling better and had a few conversations with HR about returning to work.

She has requested that they make some tweaks to her role so she can avoid stressful, high-pressure responsibilities like dealing with well-known difficult people or particularly stressful projects.

HR has now said that they can't accommodate her request and that they therefore don't think she is fit to take her original role back as she can't perform the duties the role requires. They have offered her a smaller, low-responsibility role with no managerial duties, but with the same salary as before.

AIBU I think what they are doing is illegal and she should speak to a lawyer?

But fortunately here in the UK you can't just do that. We have some protection with our employment laws.

Out of interest, based on what we know, which employment laws have been broken? Links and extracts of the specific legislation will be helpful to OP.

@Carpedimum that sounds horrendous but also does sound different to the situation the OP describes. Of course we don't have all the facts. Hence question re which laws @Mumdiva99 thinks have been broken since she seems to have the knowledge that might help OP's friend.

Whilst I think legal advice should be sought before agreeing to the changes proposed, nothing from what I read from my non-legal knowledge seems unreasonable. I don't know how many difficult people there are or what proportion of projects are 'particularly stressful'.

she feels tricked as she had a nice initial chat with HR, where she was asked to have a think about how she would have liked her role to be shaped upon her return and to send an email pointing out the bits of her job that she wanted to do less of/ not do anymore, and the bits she wanted to keep/ do more of.

She wasn't tricked, she was naive. You can't tell HR to take away the difficult parts of your job so you have no stress and expect to keep the role. Senior roles are paid highly as people in those roles handle difficult people and situations and manage very busy workloads. She basically told them she couldn't do the job.

I hope she takes the alternative and reflects on what happened and what she could have done differently. You say she raised workload with her manager as an issue, if I were him / her my first question is what have you done to try and mitigate the issues you are facing before coming to me. I.e. team restructuring, delegating more etc.

@RockingMyFiftiesNot yes my situation had similar elements but wasn’t the same - I was just trying to give general advice for everyone to keep records. In my case, the legal argument was that my employer had taken me on via a TUPE arrangement, but then sought to change my role without due consideration that it warranted negotiation. Further, I was not supported in transiting the wider company radical changes they imposed, and they’d failed to be concerned whether those changes were reasonable. The evidence showed that the changes were unreasonable and had resulted in an unnecessarily stressful environment. They’d made me redundant because I didn’t play ball nicely, and I’d proved it. They didn’t take long to offer me a pay off (with an nda obviously).

Fatal mistake to imagine HR are there to support you - they're there primarily to cover the company's arse. All the rest is window dressing.

Stress is a really debilitating illness. Even though I am one of the many saying that the employer, based on what information OP has provided, has acted unreasonably, it is very wrong to diminish the suffering this person has experienced. For them to recover fully, or at least have a good chance of recovering, they need to remove some of the stress factors from their job for now at least.
Calling them a 'snowflake' is really out of order.

Oops that should have said the employer has acted REASONABLY/ NOT acted unreaonably

Going back to the conversation with HR, I would imagine it was a conversation about her return to work - does she feel ready, is she able to return? The HR representative didn't trick her, but wanted to know the causes of the employee's long-term sick leave and if she was able to return, assess whether these things were likely to happen again.

I do think your friend is being offered an incredible deal. She admits she doesn't want to deal with some of the high-stress situations, and the fact is, that role is paid to handle exactly that. She's been offered a role that she believes the company doesn't even need, in order to keep her in the business, and she's dealing with less stress but on the same money with a senior title.

Like everyone else, I'm struggling to see why she has an issue. Is a subconscious ego issue - she doesn't want to work for the person she had as her support?

From management's point of view, she was struggling in a relatively new role and so asked for support. They agreed and hired a deputy, but this didn't solve the stress or workload situation. The deputy then finds himself stepping up for five months, undoubtedly without notice, and yet he hasn't needed the support of a deputy role, so this will speak volumes to management. Why have two people doing a role (and still be struggling) when one can do it well without stress?

Her workplace sounds incredibly supportive, clearly think highly of her, and why she isn't biting their hands off, I just can't understand.

Ignore Mynameisbiggles utterly goady post OP. I took a short period of leave due to work-related stress a few years ago. My role was supporting families whose loved ones were dying, a role that was both rewarding but emotionally-demanding as you can probably imagine. Add in some truly awful team dynamics to the mix and I can honestly say I felt no shame in needing to step back for my own well-being. It's not being a "snowflake". It saddens me that people can still hold positions that are so lacking in reflection and empathy.

@RockingMyFiftiesNot

Stress is a really debilitating illness. Even though I am one of the many saying that the employer, based on what information OP has provided, has acted unreasonably, it is very wrong to diminish the suffering this person has experienced. For them to recover fully, or at least have a good chance of recovering, they need to remove some of the stress factors from their job for now at least. Calling them a 'snowflake' is really out of order.

Technically, stress isn’t an illness. An excess of stress can cause illness, but the stress itself is not.

@mummabubs

Ignore Mynameisbiggles utterly goady post OP. I took a short period of leave due to work-related stress a few years ago. My role was supporting families whose loved ones were dying, a role that was both rewarding but emotionally-demanding as you can probably imagine. Add in some truly awful team dynamics to the mix and I can honestly say I felt no shame in needing to step back for my own well-being. It's not being a "snowflake". It saddens me that people can still hold positions that are so lacking in reflection and empathy.

Standing down for your wellbeing I think actually takes a lot of courage. Hope your new role was better for you.

I think your friend shouldn't let her pride get in the way of pragmatism. Your ego takes a horrible bashing when you haven't coped at work - I'm genuinely sympathetic to what it feels like. But the organisation can't be run based on her feelings. This seems a reasonable compromise that preserves her income without risking business continuity.

Technically, stress isn’t an illness. An excess of stress can cause illness, but the stress itself is not.

Fair enough, I'm not a doctor and bow to your superior knowledge. It is still very real and can be debilitating and it is still very wrong to call someone a snowflake.

I resuscitate people for a living. We often fail. We work 50% nights, weekends, Christmas. Long hours. In 15 years I’ve never met anyone who’s had five months off due to the stress of this. That’s really really extreme.

It really sounds like this industry is a very poor fit for this person and she should take the offer and work on retaining to something very different.

@NavigatingAdolescence if it’s not an illness then how do you get sick leave for it..? I’m sure there’s a medically certified term

You can just go on sick leave of your own volition..can you?

I really cant see what the company has done wrong.

DH was in a similar situation, time off for stress and depression(he is also a perfectionist). They bought in occupational help who made suggestions which were good but the main problems was a new manager who really didnt like the fact he had been working one day from home , an arrangement made a few years earlier because he had a long commute.
The best thing that happened to him was that he was made redundant the next year. Within a few weeks he had changed industry, was a lot closer to home with a lot less stress for him and more money.

[quote TheLastLotus]@NavigatingAdolescence if it’s not an illness then how do you get sick leave for it..? I’m sure there’s a medically certified term

You can just go on sick leave of your own volition..can you?[/quote]
No. But stress will evoke a different response in different people. If you catch the flu it’s unlikely it will present as a painful toe. The breadth of symptoms excess stress can cause mean it isn’t defined as an illness.

www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/stress/what-is-stress/

Stress can certainly make people very ill. Calling them snowflakes is ignorant and unhelpful.

Organisations need to have policies and practices in place to manage and minimise stress, and they need to make reasonable adjustments for individuals who are struggling with their mental health. However, they also have to think about what works operationally for the business - they can't just cave into every demand for every employee.

Years ago, I had to manage someone with very complex and severe mental health problems. It was incredibly stressful, and actually quite damaging to my own mental health too. Following a bout of long term sick leave, the employee in question began to make totally unrealistic demands about her return to work and how it should be managed. I knew that I couldn't possibly agree to her demands without significant impact on the business and negative fallout for others in the team, but I was really concerned about her potential response to this, as she had claimed that she couldn't return without these adjustments and being unable to work was making her feel suicidal. I will always remember my then-boss saying "paralysedbyinertia, we are a decent, kind and caring employer, and we'll do whatever we reasonably can to facilitate x's return to work, but ultimately, we are not a daycare centre". That really stuck with me. Employers absolutely have a duty of care to their employees and they can do a lot to help, but ultimately, they cannot fix everything and they need to ensure that the needs of the business and other employees are met too.

Agree with a PP who said that she shouldn’t be worrying about career progression at a time when her focus needs to be on her health.

However.

“
going back would be humiliating for her

It wouldn't be humiliating if she sold it right. "Yes, the time off gave me chance to think about what I really want from life and I realised that it's more than the continual race to the top. I'm very lucky that I can afford to step down a bit and have a better work/life balance."

I’m an ex-manager. I created two career paths for my team: one that included line management, and one that focused purely on the technical / subject-matter expert parts of the role. Most people are best at one or the other.

I’d have thought that when she’s well enough, this would be an ideal time for your friend to reassess what she wants from a career long-term. Management isn’t the only possible route to progression - especially in a company that sounds pretty flexible and like they value their staff.

I think that's very insightful @paralysedbyinertia .

I once managed a team member with MH issues and whilst as a manager I wanted to take all the necessary steps to support them, I had to put lines in place to protect the rest of the team and myself.For example they wanted me to read their CBT meeting notes and exercises and it actually started to trigger a response in me because an ex boyfriend went through a MH crisis and was sectioned at the time I was with them. I spoke to my own LM and she was very clear that our job was to provide support with return to work adaptations where we could, but employee had to manage their own condition.

In this case what they have proposed would be a bit tricky for a few days, but provided the friend approaches this with a positive mindset she might find that it's a great relief not to have the stressors of her previous role.

@DaphneduWarrior you sound like a great manager, I’d have loved to work under you!
Interestingly I’ve noticed this division myself - also because doing both roles (technical + line management) to a high degree at the same time is nigh on impossible... most people tend to choose either path 5-10 years into their careers

@GreenHeritier it’s evident that this job role is not suitable for you if you cannot handle pressure and stress. You need a job with less responsibilities (a non-management role).

[quote TheLastLotus]@NavigatingAdolescence if it’s not an illness then how do you get sick leave for it..? I’m sure there’s a medically certified term

You can just go on sick leave of your own volition..can you?[/quote]
I'm currently signed off BECAUSE of stress, not with stress. It manifests itself as anxiety, presenting as a range of physical symptoms (change of mood, loss of appetite, disorientation, digestive issues, chest pains, palpitations, poor sleep, crying, difficulty coping with basic life tasks - for example I'm not overworking, but find myself unable to do anything outside of work hours).

I'm not generally stressed, I'm specifically stressed due to a particular situation at work with an ex-colleague / business partner who is trying to bully our company out of business.

I need a couple of weeks out to reboot myself and give the meds a chance to kick in. A five month absence seems to suggest that this person unwisely pushed past their tolerance point for stress until it became unmanageable,and that returning is harder as it hasn't been nipped in the bud.

As I said up thread, I think that if you have a five month absence that should include some reflection on whether a stressful role is right for you. My CEO is very effective not because he deals with stress, but because he doesn't get stressed in the first place.

(Personally, I'm not a fan of this notion that seniority should automatically entail stress - I'm very good at cracking on, problem solving, finding opportunities and delivering on projects. The company's performance has consistently improved under my tenure, even though clearly at this juncture I need some support.)

ultimately, we are not a daycare centre

@paralysedbyinertia I think this is so true, and it's not just the world of work that is experiencing this kind of "therapeutic drift". DH is a teacher and over the course of his career has seen schools provide more and more mental health support and accommodation, and yet it seems that the need has never been greater and outpaces all the resources they direct towards it. It feels the balance is way off in many cases now - where children's MH needs are so great that the school is unable to support them, and yet the expectation is that school support and provision is the answer to everything. (Probably because everything else is savagely cut to the bone.)