To think a company can't demote you after stress leave?

[GreenHeritier]

Hi all, posting here for traffic and have NCed to protect friend's anonymity.

A close friend of mine has been on stress leave for 5 months following a burnout. Her role was a high-pressure, high-responsibility managerial role running a large team. She is now feeling better and had a few conversations with HR about returning to work.

She has requested that they make some tweaks to her role so she can avoid stressful, high-pressure responsibilities like dealing with well-known difficult people or particularly stressful projects.

HR has now said that they can't accommodate her request and that they therefore don't think she is fit to take her original role back as she can't perform the duties the role requires. They have offered her a smaller, low-responsibility role with no managerial duties, but with the same salary as before.

AIBU I think what they are doing is illegal and she should speak to a lawyer?

“Director” would always be senior to “head of”

Not at all, this is entirely dependent on the company.

My current organisation most “head of” roles are more senior than director roles, unless you mean an actual legal company director and then most of the legal directors are above “head of” unless you’re talking a “global head of”.

It’s impossible to say definitively.

I’ve never heard of a Head of being senior to a Director. Are you sure you heard her right?

In companies I've worked for it was VP, director, head of/ senior manager, manager

So I think going to Director sounds awesome and so will many Recruitmemt firm should she wish to leave.

I worked for someone like your friend. Like most of my colleagues I left because of him. The company doesn't exist anymore.

Our directors are all senior to Heads Of.
I think sometimes you just have to say, that role is not right for me and my personality. At the end of the day the job needs to be done, just perhaps not by your friend. This does not mean she is any less worthy as an employee or human being.

I’ve never heard of a Head of being senior to a Director. Are you sure you heard her right?

In all the very large MNCs I’ve worked with this has been true when it comes to a director title (as opposed to legal status).

You’d have a global head of widgets, who was likely an EVP who would then have regional (e.g EU) head of’s reporting in , who would be supported by country level directors.

I think this offer is incredibly fair. I’ve worked in HR for a large company and honestly if we got this request we would discretely end up managing her out as she wouldn’t be able to fulfil her role (was a full on stressful company). To pay her the same for a less stressful job is surely the dream??

Wow - I wish I’d been treated that well! I had three months off with stress a few years ago and was more or less forced out of my job. I am pretty sure I would have had a legal case, but it was a small local charity and I wouldn’t do that to them. Plus I managed to get another job very quickly which I’m still very happy in several years on.

The company sounds like it’s being incredibly good to your friend. I hope she makes a good start back and is happy in her new role, assuming she takes it. I do feel for her.

Is she reading this thread op?

@CattingTime

Is she reading this thread op?

Yes I sent her the link.

I don’t think it’s illegal. Those ‘tweaks’ your friend has asked for are not reasonable adjustments.

What’s her reaction?

I dont believe it is illegal, employers have a duty of care to their employees and they are continuing to employ her, on the same wage, but in a lower, less stressful position. Shes hot a win win situation. They clearly don't want to lose her, but offered a lower, less stressful position.

@GreenHeritier

Hi all, posting here for traffic and have NCed to protect friend's anonymity.

A close friend of mine has been on stress leave for 5 months following a burnout. Her role was a high-pressure, high-responsibility managerial role running a large team. She is now feeling better and had a few conversations with HR about returning to work.

She has requested that they make some tweaks to her role so she can avoid stressful, high-pressure responsibilities like dealing with well-known difficult people or particularly stressful projects.

HR has now said that they can't accommodate her request and that they therefore don't think she is fit to take her original role back as she can't perform the duties the role requires. They have offered her a smaller, low-responsibility role with no managerial duties, but with the same salary as before.

AIBU I think what they are doing is illegal and she should speak to a lawyer?

So she will be paid the same to do less? Time I changed job!

In my industry, "Head of" or "Lead" are senior to "director".

The friend would be well advised to accept the proposed new role, esp given it's same reward package. The right response is to grab it with both hands and face the (slight) embarrassment head on by thanking her former deputy for doing such a great job which allowed her to have months off to recover. Assure them that anything she can do to return the favour she will be happy to do.

Then make the best of the new role and, either make something of it or use it to pay the bills while looking for a new role which suits their skills and experience.

It might not be too difficult to get a new job. Choose wisely, the next employer may not be as generous in the face of burn out.

Good luck.

This is reasonable. An alternative to what has happened is the employer commencing a capability procedure which can ultimately lead to dismissal.

The employer has taken a pragmatic approach, considered and applied reasonable adjustments which has allowed the employee to stay in employment and undertake a role which does not damage their mental health further.
Your friend has been offered a suitable alternative on the same money so there is no real damage; other than to their pride.
There is nothing to say that your friend won’t be able to take on a more senior role in the future with the same company.
Essentially though, I think you’re asking for your friend to have their cake and eat it. I think the employer has done a good job. I could only imagine the complaints that would be raised by other staff who are working at your friends previous level with all the stress and responsibility but with none of the adjustments had the demotion not happened.
You can probably guess, I work in HR.

she now feels very conflicted about going back and working essentially for this person who was previously her right hand

That is something I personally wouldn't agree to, I can understand the reluctance there. I think your friend should accept the change of position, but not a reporting line back to her replacement. Can she not report to the same person she did previously (whoever was above the Head role)? That would also give her some sense of parity to her old role.

I have been off with stress/depression on my return they adjusted my shifts slightly as in not too many nights in a row and not working 7 day stretches. If I couldn't fulfil my role or the couldn't do the nights then I would of been placed elsewhere in a different role. I had hr and Union involved. I think they can do what they have offered as she can't fulfil her job role.

@CosmicComfort

I’m NHS and it’s not uncommon for people to step back and drop a Band or more. The higher up you go, the more management responsibilities and stress you get, there is no shame in struggling with that. However you can’t expect to keep a prestigious job title while someone else does the tough bits.

I’m only Band 6 but would happily lose some of the stressful band 6 tasks and drop back to Band 5 if my boss would let me🤣 If they offered to pay me band 6 and take away all the stressful bits I’d bite their hand off!

I think it’s a reasonable offer for your friend and if she isn’t coping, she may have to reassess her career goals.

^^ this. I used to manage in the NHS (band7) and my husband was a senior manager in a global company. She is lucky to keep her salary and that they have a place for her because another option would have been medical severance where basically you are paid to leave.

Plenty of employers would be finding ways to move people out who had this level of sickness - regardless of why.

@Sventon

This is reasonable. An alternative to what has happened is the employer commencing a capability procedure which can ultimately lead to dismissal. The employer has taken a pragmatic approach, considered and applied reasonable adjustments which has allowed the employee to stay in employment and undertake a role which does not damage their mental health further. Your friend has been offered a suitable alternative on the same money so there is no real damage; other than to their pride. There is nothing to say that your friend won’t be able to take on a more senior role in the future with the same company. Essentially though, I think you’re asking for your friend to have their cake and eat it. I think the employer has done a good job. I could only imagine the complaints that would be raised by other staff who are working at your friends previous level with all the stress and responsibility but with none of the adjustments had the demotion not happened. You can probably guess, I work in HR.

yes indeed also they are facing head on the problem of the others who are doing the same job as she will be for less money. In the NHS, unless its temporary and accompanied by a return to full work plan then it wouldn't be allowed.

Following with interest as I have been signed off for a couple of weeks from a senior role with stress myself. The specific stress trigger involves dealing with an ex-employee/business contract issue which is short term and not my primary responsibility (it's the CEO's duty to manage that and I've been assisting as well as trying to do my normal work).

It could in theory be part of my phased return that I don't have to provide direct support for that situation any more and instead focus on my own role. But if it were primarily my responsibility I'd accept that I couldn't carry on with the same role as before. I'd bite the hand off someone offering me the same salary with a different but still senior title.

Has your friend not had any advice or support around her sick leave? Literally every single support agency and friend I've spoken to has repeated that it's just a job, not worth your health etc.

It sounds odd to gear up for a fight when she returns when her material circumstances haven't changed and she is in a senior role.

I got sacked from my job of 5 years due to my mental health, it’s legal I’m afraid, shouldn’t be but there we go

Yep @godmum56. I agree with you. The employer here has chosen to to modify the salary, others wouldn’t.
We don’t know the specifics of the salary as the employee could have been paid lower than peers of the role which is more in line with the lower level role so there may not be a massive issue but the problem with all things employee based is fairness and parity.

I hope the employer isn’t making a rod of its own back by trying to be generous and accommodating to facilitate this return to work.