To say no bedtime stories as consequence for bad behaviour at bedtime?

[Hardbackwriter]

Feel like I got this one wrong but not sure what was right so thought I'd ask for advice! DS1 (2y10m) has been quite difficult about bedtime for a while - he's fine about actually getting into bed and going to sleep at the end, but messes about, runs around/away etc during getting him into his PJs and toothbrushing. We say quite often 'if you keep doing that there will be no time for stories' quite often, which usually chivvies him along. Last night though he was particularly wild and when I used the 'no stories if you keep messing about' line he hit me, so I walked out of the room for a couple of minutes (which is always what we do for hitting - there was a phase a few months ago, which this fixed, and this was the first time he's done it since) but when I came back in he was still refusing to get undressed so I I said 'right, no stories tonight'. He was devastated, sobbed and sobbed saying 'but I love books!', which made me feel like a terrible person but I felt it was important to follow through. But he was so upset - he calmed down just before bed and we had usual cuddles but I could tell he was subdued, and this morning the first thing he said to me was 'I'm a bit sad' and when I asked why he said 'because you said I couldn't have stories' . I feel like if I hadn't followed through it would have taught him that I don't mean what I say, but on the other hand he was so sad about it, and denying a child stories feels so harsh! WIBU and what should I have done instead if so?

Think of something else. Bedtime stories are such a special thing to miss out on

You did well to hold firm.

If it happens again you should reply to him in the morning situation that it was because he wouldn’t settle (or whichever way you express that to him).
You can also tell him that that made you sad.

I think you were right and hopefully tonight your little one might settle a bit better. At the start of the bedtime routine tonight you could get him to pick out a book and have it sitting by his bed all ready to read after PJ's and teeth etc. Then you can use that to encourage him not to be messing around.

What is your whole bedtime routine like?
Could you swap it around to remove the flashpoints?
Does he have a bath - could you do teeth brushing in the bath maybe?
Are the lights down low?
Are you stopping exciting things (like running around games, screens) early enough?

Missing 1 bedtime story and being sad won't harm him, and it may well have your desired effect as he knows you will follow through.

@listershologram

Think of something else. Bedtime stories are such a special thing to miss out on

That's what I think too - it was the first time ever that he's not been read to before bed since he was about two months old - but I also think/believe that all consequences at his age need to be immediate, so there isn't really anything else at bedtime? Which is why I felt so torn about it!

Absolutely. I've done this myself. A punishment teaches the child where value is placed in your life. They and I value reading, my teens still read a few books every week. It's mean to carry a punishment over to another day out of spite.

Its so tough OP, my daughter is a couple of months younger and I'm finding this age so tough!

I get why you did this but i see bedtime and story time as a bonding experience and i figure when she's being the most exasperating and testing boundaries is when she needs to be held the closest, even if that's the last thing I feel like doing! So i probably would have kept story time.

Its so hard though because they say consequences need to be immediate and related to the action, so missing stories for messing around too much at bedtime makes sense.

My DD can sometimes hit too and i also do the leaving the room thing. I usually tell her its ok to feel angry but not ok to hurt people, and that i need to leave the room to make sure my body stays safe. Explaining it like this seems to get through to her - just thought I'd suggest in case it helps. But on the whole i offer solidarity rather than advice, sorry!

@Hardbackwriter You were right! He obviously loves bedtime stories but needs to learn that his actions have consequences.

I've done this before with DD, she gets really upset but it's very effective. I don't have to do it very often. I think it's an effective consequences lesson, especially if they really love story time. I'd never say no goodnight cuddle as a consequence but storytime definitely

I think you did the right thing - it's a natural consequence for wasting time when getting ready for bed. I did this once when DD was being silly about getting ready for bed. She took so long that we didn't actually have time for a story, as she needed to be up early the next day. She was really upset, but she was super quick getting ready for bed the next evening. We haven't had any problems since.

I would do this as a rare one off if nothing else was working but it would be a last resort.

I have had to do this and luckily had same reaction as your child, which meant I only had to do it once!

I think it's fine. It's something he enjoys that he gets when he's done the stuff he doesn't enjoy. If he doesn't do the other stuff, he doesn't get the fun stuff. Not like you refused to feed him or locked him in a dark room scared and crying.

Remind him tonight that if he wants bedtime stories he has to get ready for bed nicely.

So - things you did right: ignored and removed attention from (by walking away) the hitting, followed through on your threatened consequence (no stories).

Thing you did wrong: threatening no stories! (Because it left bedtime on a sad note, and because stories aren’t just fun, they’re important for development too.)

I always had to stop my DH from saying things like this in the heat of the moment because it nearly always made it worse not better - you have to follow through if you state what will happen but you as the adult can pick the consequence so it’s not disproportionate or double whammy negative.

What else would a consequence for this behaviour look like? Or could there be rewards for good behaviour? Only 1 story as standard but he can earn more?

@TeenMinusTests

What is your whole bedtime routine like? Could you swap it around to remove the flashpoints? Does he have a bath - could you do teeth brushing in the bath maybe? Are the lights down low? Are you stopping exciting things (like running around games, screens) early enough?

Missing 1 bedtime story and being sad won't harm him, and it may well have your desired effect as he knows you will follow through.

The problem is I know what the big flashpoint is but it's unavoidable - it's having his emollient on, which he loathes, but he has to have it on three times a day (which is a bit of a nightmare generally) for his eczema and he'd wake up itchy in the night if one of them wasn't bedtime. But he does mess around after that too so it isn't just trying to avoid that.

His bedtime behaviour (sorry if this is a bit of a dripfeed) also got worse when I was heavily pregnant and he now has a 9 week old brother, which may well be part of the problem - but we already do everything recommended for that, e.g. ensure he gets time alone with each of us. He doesn't show any visible jealousy - he adores the baby - but I wonder if it means he wants to elongate that time just him, but again I don't know what we could do about that that we aren't already.

I personally wouldn't withhold bedtime stories because I want the bedtime routine and reading books to be a positive experience, however I can see how once you'd said it, you had to follow through. I'd have followed through too and felt like I should have picked something else as a consequence and endeavour to do that next time. We all do it. It's not the end of the world and if he genuinely felt upset at missing it out it might be enough to stop him messing about another night. In fact if he does mess about at bedtime again, I wouldn't threaten the same thing but I'd remind him of what happened by saying 'look, you missed out on bedtimes stories last time because you weren't going to bed nicely so let's get into bed now and have a cuddle and read'...

I don't think you did anything wrong -- see how his behaviour is tonight. I'm on the fence about whether I would have reinstated the story in your shoes if i had received a sincere apology. I just don't know! But in future perhaps you could get him to choose his story in advance and then it becomes a more alluring carrot at bedtime? Or perhaps he gets a reward (two chapters? two books?) if he gets ready for bed with no fuss whatsoever? That maintains the positive association with books and reading?

My children have 2 stories as standard so I can take one away but they're not left with nothing. Never threatened removal of the second.

I think you did exactly the right thing.

Books are sacred in our house & bedtime stories have been a thing literally from birth (well, as soon as we were home from hospital). However, I have also stopped bedtime stories as a consequence for messing around at bedtime. I’ve only ever had to do it a handful of times though (& my dc are 8 & 7 - I can’t actually remember the last time because they know the deal with bedtime & want their stories).

I try to use natural consequences as much as possible, which this is - bedtime is a hard deadline so if you take too long doing x, y & z, there won’t be time for stories.

You’ve also shown your ds that if you say something, you mean it, and that is SO important for boundaries and your child feeling secure (obviously with the proviso you aren’t threatening ridiculous consequences).

It’s great that he was reflecting on his actions & how that made him feel this morning - that shows real maturity & you should be really proud of him for that. I would probably have said something like ‘yes it made me sad too because I love our story time so let’s make sure we are really organised with our bedtime routine tonight so we don’t miss them again.’

Actions have consequences, we all need to understand that. Consequences can be good or bad and we are in control of the actions we take to result in the consequences.

I think you handled it really well and hopefully it will help you & ds going forward to have a really positive bedtime routine.

Fine as a one off, but at that age it's hard to take away the nice thing altogether, as sometimes they then decide they might as well be bad if there's nothing to aspire to. I usually just did the walking out of the room until they calmed down, then came back and did story. I try not to use stories as reward/punishment because I don't want to damage their later joy of reading. Also, I love it , so I would be spiting myself!

You did the right thing to follow through.
Perhaps start doing two stories, the first your choice the second his choice but if he messes about you will run out of time and he will need to miss his turn.

Do you use any of the techniques from ‘How to Talk So Kids Will Listen’? I’m thinking of the sympathising and telling stories of how we wish things could be different (the emollient) and getting him involved in the solution to messing about at bedtime/stories in particular. He may be too young yet but it’s a really good read for strategies anyway.

Oh emolient .

We had that too. Such fun. Wriggling away when covered in it but the vest and leggings not yet on. Trying to get the vest on over her head without getting grease all over everything. Happy days

Can you up to 2 stories on days he doesn't mess about, so then you can cut one out if he does but there would still be one left?

You said it, so you had to do it! Unless you hear yourself say something utterly reprehensible. You did the right thing following through. Hopefully it will prove to have been effective.

I wAs going to say come together at the end of the day whatever. But you gave it as a natural consequence so sticking to that was worthwhile.

I think I might have said no time for a book that can be tomorrow but that I would tell a very quick tale "out of my head." For that I would always use some old family anecdote that I could put over in a minute! Then final hug and goodnight when we were pals again.