To say no bedtime stories as consequence for bad behaviour at bedtime?

[Hardbackwriter]

Feel like I got this one wrong but not sure what was right so thought I'd ask for advice! DS1 (2y10m) has been quite difficult about bedtime for a while - he's fine about actually getting into bed and going to sleep at the end, but messes about, runs around/away etc during getting him into his PJs and toothbrushing. We say quite often 'if you keep doing that there will be no time for stories' quite often, which usually chivvies him along. Last night though he was particularly wild and when I used the 'no stories if you keep messing about' line he hit me, so I walked out of the room for a couple of minutes (which is always what we do for hitting - there was a phase a few months ago, which this fixed, and this was the first time he's done it since) but when I came back in he was still refusing to get undressed so I I said 'right, no stories tonight'. He was devastated, sobbed and sobbed saying 'but I love books!', which made me feel like a terrible person but I felt it was important to follow through. But he was so upset - he calmed down just before bed and we had usual cuddles but I could tell he was subdued, and this morning the first thing he said to me was 'I'm a bit sad' and when I asked why he said 'because you said I couldn't have stories' . I feel like if I hadn't followed through it would have taught him that I don't mean what I say, but on the other hand he was so sad about it, and denying a child stories feels so harsh! WIBU and what should I have done instead if so?

I think it's fine as a one-off, especially as he wasn't just messing about; he hit you.

But I wouldn't use it regularly: (a) bedtime stories are educational as well as fun, and may make it easier to learn to read; (b) best not to leave a child feeling unhappy just before sleep.

I think Foobydoo's idea of two stories and missing just the second if he delays things too much is a good one.

Could he have the emollient applied slightly earlier, so that it's not so associated with bedtime - even if it means his being in pyjamas toward the end of the day?

You did right to follow through otherwise he would never take you seriously. It's hard though to see them upset. I wonder if there's a way to make putting on his emollient less of a horrible thing, does he like nursery rhymes or any songs that you could sing to him or sing together while you do it? or what about a special fiddle toy he only plays with at that time? You could have a timer to see if he can get changed into his pj's in 60 seconds or whatever and do a countdown (great for learning numbers too!)
It's fantastic that he loves books at such a young age too!!!

I think it was good to follow through once you had said it. However it's not a great thing to do as bedtime stories are really important and educational. If it is something that soothes him then it will only make him more unhappy at bedtime if he thinks there's a risk he won't get them.

I have done a similar thing, but the "punishment" is that I get to choose the story whereas usually it would be dc.

I like the option of only doing 1 instead of two as well- thanks mumsnet :)

Our DS has lost bedtime stories a few time in a similar scenario - endless mucking around, parent tearing their hair out, makes threat, further mucking around, no story, child inevitably devastated, parent guiltily follows through. I think it's fine for them to miss the odd story if you've reached the absolute end of your tether and make a rash threat but need to follow through on it. We still say "Would you like a story?" "Yes" "Then come here and get your pyjamas on" from time to time. We try to phrase it as "We need to get on or there won't be time for a story!"

However, I would be very sad if they had no story night after night because of an ongoing problem, and I would be looking at other ways to tackle it. I also like "How to talk so little kids will listen", and I wonder if you can figure out a way to make the emollient more fun. I know! Fun! But maybe you could have a race against a timer, or pretend it's magic cream that will give him superpowers, or make up a silly song. Our 3yo is a sucker for a song. Or write down instructions and read them out to him. Ours thinks anything written down is like the ark of the covenant! He's at the lower age limit of the book but I've still found it really helpful.

I sympathise with the new baby too. Our 3yo has started mucking around at bedtime because he wants to prolong it because I'm pregnant and DH is doing 90% of the childcare so 3yo wants to spend more time with me and therefore prolong bedtime. We're trying a few things: him having a cuddle and book in bed with me earlier in the day while the 1yo naps; we're going to move him into a bed so he can decide whether he naps or plays quietly because I think he's not as tired as he used to be at night; but honestly, most nights I just end up appealing to his better nature and saying I'm sure he doesn't want me to be too tired to do anything tomorrow so I need to get to bed now.

That was always our consequence. But my sister and I were pretty good. So I don't remember it actually happening. My dad now says the favourite part of our childhood was reading us bedtime stories.

Cause and effect. He misbehaved, you offered a warning, he still misbehaved so you took away something he enjoys. I think it’s good parenting. You also gave the warning, it would’ve been poor parenting not to follow through with it.

I always do the same - if you mess around, you run out of time.
I’ll remind them - we only have 10 minutes left so if you don’t let me brush your hair we won’t have time for stories.

If my kid brought it up the next day I’d just use it as an opportunity to reinforce the message - you messed around and ran out of time. Then next time they start playing up at bedtime you can remind them “remember how sad you were when you ran out of time for a story?”.

I think you did well to follow through. Could you start rewarding for getting his cream on? At that age I think immediate rewards work best so tell him he can choose 2 books instead of 1 for being such a big clever boy and sitting nicely for his cream?

You definitely did the right thing by following through with your threat (whether you now feel the threat was approprite or not)

Can you do a timer, where the story ends when the timer rings, so the more he messes about, the less story time he gets? Keep gently reminding him he's running out of time.

@listershologram

Think of something else. Bedtime stories are such a special thing to miss out on

And should one then withhold something that isn't special? What is the purpose of that. At nearly three years old he has got id down pat. He knows what he wants. Ego is beginning to emerge, but superego will be a while more. He needs to understand that behaviour has consequences, and that not everything in life operates to his wants and demands. He will not be immeasurably harmed by missing a couple of nights bedtime stories. And he knows what to do if he wants to avoid that consequence.

I also always find telling ds1 what's going to happen in what order helps. He's 4.5 now and doesn't need this anymore but did until he was nearly 4 I'd say.
So; give him 5 minute warning and countdown for getting into the bath, I'd brush teeth in bath while he's distracted with a toy, then 5 minute warning and countdown for getting out of the bath and tell him at this point. "Ds once you're out the bath mummy will get you dry then put your cream and pjs on and once you've sat nicely for your cream you can choose 2 books for being so clever" make the 2 books seem like a really exciting reward. While he's getting the cream on continue talking about what books he might choose for being so clever and sitting nicely.

You were right to follow through but avoid withdrawing that if you can help it. Bedtimes just are a nightmare at this age.

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You followed through, that's very important.

I hope when he said he was sad this morning you said something along the lines of 'of, feeling sad isn't very nice is it. Why did I say 'no stories'? and make sure he has properly connected HIS behaviour with the consequences that ended up making him feel sad.

If he's messing around tonight I would remind him that he feels sad when there's no time fit a story, but HE is in control of that. All he needs to do is not mess around.

Does having the emollient put in hurt , feel yucky or is it just boring?

I'd try to reward for behaving rather than punish for not. So yes 1 story ordinarily, two if he gets ready for bed nicely.

It must be hard to be 3 & have what feels like something competing for mummy & daddy's time & attention & I think you do need to allow for regressive behaviour., but you still need him to do as he's told. So lots & lots of cuddles & praise in the day, not having everything revolve around the baby (or when it does, make it seem like it's not) YOU need a cup of tea, would HE like a drink, let's get the baby's bottle while we are here so we don't need to come back again. Let's put these things back in the bedroom & I'll get my cardi, let's change baby's nappy while we are here. Baby would know or care, DS will think less of life revolves around the new little imposter and feel more like he's had more attention in the day so less likely to misbehave for attention later.

Being sad is ok, learning to accept responsibility for your actions & the consequences is a life skill! & one best learnt young! You're raising him to be a decent human being- it's not always fun & giggles.

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@GoWalkabout

You were right to follow through but avoid withdrawing that if you can help it. Bedtimes just are a nightmare at this age.

They don’t have to be a nightmare though - that’s the whole point of having firm boundaries and following through.

Thanks so much for all these replies - there's some great stuff here, will definitely think about doing the two books and only using the second as a consequence (currently we have somewhere between one and three books, depending on what he chooses - if he chooses short ones then he has more) or saying he won't get to choose the book. They both seem more palatable than no stories at all as a consequence.

I have read (or, to be more honest, I have read bits of) the How To Talk book and find the techniques useful for lots of situations but a lot of them don't seem to work for this particular one, or it seems like they have diminishing returns - e.g. being playful about putting on the emollient or sympathetic about it both helped for a bit but not for long. Similarly we used to do the choices thing - 'do you want your stripy pyjamas or the dinosaur ones?' - until he worked out that he could say 'i don't want any pyjamas' and that was the end of that working!

He's not always difficult at bed - and weirdly he's great about going up (will ask to when he's tired sometimes!) and about actually going to sleep, it's the bit in the middle. Some days he's great about it and really amenable and others a nightmare and I can't spot any pattern to it in terms of time, what he's eaten/done that day, which one of us is doing bedtime, etc

I do no books at bedtime and lights straight out if there is bad behaviour. I relent if there is an apology and we manage to discuss what went wrong (shes 6 so a 2 yo will be not be able to do this)

DD has only been a pain at bedtime a few times because she loves reading so much.

. Had the same with DD this weekend and she went from 3 to 2 stories. It still culminated in a massive amount of very emotional behaviour. It’s so wearing and sad to end the day like this so I do empathise.

That is very tough but I think you did the right thing

@Angrypregnantlady

I think it's fine. It's something he enjoys that he gets when he's done the stuff he doesn't enjoy. If he doesn't do the other stuff, he doesn't get the fun stuff. Not like you refused to feed him or locked him in a dark room scared and crying.

Remind him tonight that if he wants bedtime stories he has to get ready for bed nicely.

Agree with this. What you did worked out really well and hopefully he'll remember that tonight and not mess about as much.

For me and I think the kids bedtime stories are sacrosanct. I would never threaten to take away their comfort toys if they have been a pain, same with stories.

What I do instead is say that they start off with getting 3 stories, that goes down to 2, then 1 if they keep messing around. This works really well, have only had to go down to two stories about twice, never down to one. She usually falls asleep by the end of book two.

Ahhh the dreaded "cream". We have with my 5 yr old and 3yr old turned this into a bit of a laugh. So they get their cream on then I pick an animal and they have to do "a dance" sometimes a short piece of music other times not. Turning something they hate but had to be done into a bit of fun.

I do think that sometimes you have to take away something to stop the bad behaviour and I don't think it was "wrong". We do have a story and a song and we really try not to lose both of them.

[quote Snackz]@Hardbackwriter You were right! He obviously loves bedtime stories but needs to learn that his actions have consequences. [/quote]
This^ Especially if he has returned to hitting you again.
Agree with him - "I missed our story too, but I am sad when you hit me and don't get ready for bed at bedtime."

An immediate, natural and logical consequence for poor behaviour always makes more sense than the endless “now, now darling” approach.
He messed about so ran out of time for stories. He remembers that made him sad. Tonight if there’s any more nonsense hopefully a gentle “you remember how sad you were last night when we ran out of time for stories” will be enough to restore calm.

He's very young for "consequences" for behaviour at this time of day I think.

Instead I'd advise you try and figure out the source of the reluctance to settle down.

This is prime age and stage for nightmares starting and fear of the dark ramping up etc I think you need to investigate that first. He possibly associates the emollient with bedtime and possibly nightmares?

Also keep ingested stimulants to a minimum in the hours leading up to bedtime? Where possible

Can you change at what point applying the emollient takes place in his routine even slightly? What is his issue with it? Would distraction work here?

Tricky indeed