AIBU to not pay?

[BathTapper]

Would you pay for a service if it hadn’t been fulfilled?

Please be aware that the following is largely hypothetical. I can’t give any other detail as I’m worried it’s outing and the person providing this service is very potentially on here. Please don’t just tell me IABU for this alone.

Let’s say you hired someone to provide a dog behavioural service. So you have a dog that has a terrible recall. You hire someone who offers to help you recall your dog. You agree to pay for 4 weeks of support where they will help you get your dog to a decent level of recall. There is no exact promise that your dog will have perfect recall afterwards, but they’re a dog trainer and this is what they do.

4 weeks later and whilst you have done EVERYTHING exactly as they have suggested, dogs recall hasn’t changed. Do you still pay? They have given their time and their knowledge, but the outcome isn’t there. But it’s a dog, an independent creature. Would you pay for their time anyway and shrug it off as a loss or tell them you won’t pay as they haven’t fulfilled the goal?

Thanks

Yes, you're paying them for the service - time and expertise. They never agreed to deliver perfect recall in a 4 week period (because as a professional they understand this may not happen) so why would you withhold payment on these grounds?

There are many reasons why the dog's behaviour may not have changed in that time including how long you have spent actually doing the training and your ability to train as instructed

I imagine somewhere in their t&c’s will be something saying they can’t guarantee it.
I’d be frustrated, but yes I think you do need to pay. It’s their living presumably. Maybe have a conversation with them about how disappointed you are you’ve not seen more results, ask if there’s anything they can suggest - you’d be happy to pay if it had worked, right? So much of dog training is about repetition and time, just because it’s not worked in four weeks doesn’t mean it won’t work if you keep trying at it.

It depends what the agreement was. If you were paying them for four weeks of training and that's what you got then you pay them.

If they said they would train them to recall then you have an answer to ask them to keep training or pay less.

But I doubt that they would guarantee outcomes.

Yes, you still pay. They haven’t promised an outcome; you’re paying for their time, skills and knowledge, not for a specific result which can’t be guaranteed. Unless they specifically promise success or your money back, you still have to pay.

So you’re saying there has been no improvement whatsoever? Did the trainer acknowledge the lack of improvement and change tact? Unless there was a money back guarantee you’d still pay.

@BathTapper

Would you pay for a service if it hadn’t been fulfilled?

Please be aware that the following is largely hypothetical. I can’t give any other detail as I’m worried it’s outing and the person providing this service is very potentially on here. Please don’t just tell me IABU for this alone.

Let’s say you hired someone to provide a dog behavioural service. So you have a dog that has a terrible recall. You hire someone who offers to help you recall your dog. You agree to pay for 4 weeks of support where they will help you get your dog to a decent level of recall. There is no exact promise that your dog will have perfect recall afterwards, but they’re a dog trainer and this is what they do.

4 weeks later and whilst you have done EVERYTHING exactly as they have suggested, dogs recall hasn’t changed. Do you still pay? They have given their time and their knowledge, but the outcome isn’t there. But it’s a dog, an independent creature. Would you pay for their time anyway and shrug it off as a loss or tell them you won’t pay as they haven’t fulfilled the goal?

Thanks

You need to pay.

Yes you pay them.

Let’s say you paid for singing lessons, or guitar lessons, piano lessons, or English, maths, science tutoring. After a number of months of tuition, despite doing everything the tutor told you, despite understanding everything the tutor told you, you decided to quit because you just couldn’t get the hang of singing, piano, guitar, etc etc.

You would still have to pay the tutor.

Yes you should still pay. I perform a foot care service. Some clients will never get their toes back to normal because the fungus/deep seated infections cannot be totally100% removed, without the client also loosing a toe/nail as well.
I have still performed my service to the best of my ability, it’s just that the client has an issue that goes far beyond my regular service and that’s something I cannot change.

Yes, you pay!

Okay thank you. I wasn’t really sure what the situation would be, as I say I know the dog is an independent and there’s never a guarantee in such a situation, especially when it’s behavioural. It’s just frustrating, but of course I understand!

Yes, they have delivered the service. You don't need to be happy with it, but you do need to pay them for their time.

Yes. Of course I’d pay in that circumstance.

Yes

If they provided the service they get paid, the dogs inability to learn isn’t the dog trainers fault.

The dog trainer has done the work and provided the advice, of course they deserve to be paid.

The default would be that it's service based, so we provide x and that's that. Some might have a marketing strategy to be output based, so we will only charge once y is achieved, but that'd be very unlikely.

I don't think the answer to a hypothetical question is going to help here as obviously you should pay if a dog trainer has provided their service as not all dogs are trainable in the time you've had.

But as it isn't a dog trainer how can we say, is it maybe an 11 plus tutor or something like that? You should still pay even if your child didnt get the result you wanted unless the service provider was patently useless

You pay for the training, not the result. Pay up!

@BathTapper

Okay thank you. I wasn’t really sure what the situation would be, as I say I know the dog is an independent and there’s never a guarantee in such a situation, especially when it’s behavioural. It’s just frustrating, but of course I understand!

Think of it like a tutor for your kids, coaching them to get through a maths gcse.

They've invested their time to tutor your kids but there's still no guarantee they'll pass. You still pay for the time they've served.

Yes they have changed tack to try different things and yes I am paying for their time and expertise not an exact outcome, so it does seem fair to pay even if the behaviour hasn’t changed at all. Never mind, I guess I will just shrug it off and try something new!

Thank you all for your responses. I haven’t mentioned to them anything yet, so I’ll pay them now and maybe just let them know that I’m disappointed that it hasn’t been successful.

In that situation, they have provided the service, but the outcome was not the desired outcome. That is different to not fulfilling the service

Yes I think you should pay but don't leave glowing reviews!

With my DS I considered hiring a sleep consultant as wasn't comfortable with sleep training that involved tears. I did a taster class that still cost nearly 50 quid. Tried all the suggestions but 3 years later I have just accepted there is no easy fix!

Unless they advertised a guaranteed outcome, or they misrepresented their expertise, of course you have to pay. It would have been obvious that not all dogs will react as well to the training so there is a risk that your dog won't improve.

You still pay unless they guaranteed success or your money back. It's like if a child was hopeless at learning the piano or you were a poor driver. You pay for the lessons anyway, hopefully a good teacher would try a few methods.

If they provided the four weeks training then the service has been fulfilled IMO. Surely you’re aware there’s no guarantee?