To ask how you know if a special needs school is right for your DC?

[PlantYourAlans]

DS is 3.5 years old. Diagnosed with ASD in December. He is completely non verbal, but more frustratingly doesn’t seem to have basic levels of understanding, such as ‘get the cup’ etc. Not toilet trained and I can’t see it happening anytime soon, again not really talking related but more understanding.

He goes to formal school not this September but September 2022.

His private nursery agree that theirs isn’t really in his best interests and he’s benefit from the facilities offered by the local Special school. Of which is the only one for miles and miles, and caters for those with complex needs, including things like complex physical health conditions.

I’m just wondering how you know a special school is really right for them? Sometimes I wonder will DC not benefit more from being around just average, school children in a mainstream setting? Like the real world has most of and expects you to conform to? Or will a special school be better really? As it has amazing equipment and great stuff such as hydrotherapy and speech and language within the school setting.

I know you can’t legally exclude a child for not being toilet trained, but I can’t see how it would be pleasant for DS or his peers if he’s in nappies at school?

It does state on their website that they take children with autistic if it’s ‘very moderate to severe’. But they didn’t actually say where my DS is when he was diagnosed, and I was told they can’t say anymore and nobody will be told going forward, it’s just a blanket diagnosis of ASD.

We’re submitting evidence to a panel in May to gain a place. From what I’ve read online it can be difficult to get in with funding but his school and the local SEN support for them seem very positive that he will get a yes?

Thank you for any advice x

Sorry - in answer to your question, you just know as soon as you walk into a school whether it's right or not for your child.

I'd go and look round as many schools as you can (mainstream and special) in your local authority and neighbouring local authorities. You'll know when you've found the right one.

Agree that you need to look at specific schools and you need to visit. I refused to even consider our nearest for ds2 because when I visited for Ds1, I found their attitude to be awful. I visited another, for ds2, that was supposed to be a centre of excellence for his particular issues. I found it to be very tense - very much a walking on eggshells feeling - lots of very sensitive pupils there (and anachronistically, a CP unit with kids wailing because they don't like their conductive therapy) Ds2 is loud and obsessive. It wouldn't have been a good fit for him or them. The school he is at is happy and bustling and he loves it there and has developed so much.

Right. So I have three children. My eldest is Autistic.

He went to a mainstream school till he was 5. It was lovely, the teachers were lovely, the kids were lovely, the parents were lovely. After school, the teachers will tell me "oh, his had a brilliant day". Then one day, as I was on my way to a meeting with a TA, I passed by my sons class, he was by the corner, playing with Playdoh whilst all the other kids were doing their work. I thought- Ohno, he is just being babysat.

I looked around special schools. Most of the special schools around my borough, were not good and honestly thought that some were just glorified babysitting services. I looked out of my borough.. same old same old. Then I spoke to a parent who advised me to look at independent specialist schools which cater more for children who are in the middle end (not standard special but not mainstream either) and are very specialist in nature, which have in house OT, SLT, tutoring, etc etc. We saw three, and two blew my mind. I paid for legal reports, spent thousands, went to Tribunal and we got him into the school.

I was devastated when he left his mainstream school. We lost the local connection (as the independent school was an hour away from where we live). The kids were lovely, I don't and still don't feel apart of my community.

But, at aged 5, I had a non verbal boy, who only spoke two words, couldn't sit still for two minutes and it was like teaching a brick wall (harsh but true). Now I have an almost teenager, who has full blown conversations with me, who talks way too much, is attending mainstream after school classes and is doing very well academically. I didn't think this was possible. Whichever decision you make, comes with a "consequence". We knew if we left mainstream, particularly in our local community, we wouldn't feel connected to our community. But I wanted My son to speak, to function in society, to communicate, to have friends, to be in a place where he can reach his full potential and that was worth everything.

Then one day, as I was on my way to a meeting with a TA, I passed by my sons class, he was by the corner, playing with Playdoh whilst all the other kids were doing their work. I thought- Ohno, he is just being babysat.

Very sad, but sadly unsurprising to me!
Some parents with additional needs children in mainstream would be shocked, if a fly on the wall.

What communication programme is in place now?
How is speech language and Communication integrated in his nursery day?
How does he choose activities and how do they communicate with him?
PECS then ipad app running grid software gave ds a voice

I passed by my sons class, he was by the corner, playing with Playdoh whilst all the other kids were doing their work. I thought- Ohno, he is just being babysat.
That's basically what my DS does he has a a great sna and movement breaks but no actual learning work spends lots of time with Playdoh.
He really enjoys Astir and the fun things he hates anything academic he has pda asd so won't attempt it.

My eldest attends a special school, some family members were against it as they felt he was being ‘written off’, quite the opposite - the school has the expertise to understand his needs. He will be doing GCSES next year. He is also making progress in independent living skills. He achieved nothing in mainstream as he just slept with his under his jumper all day completely shut down. I don’t think he would’ve managed a single GCSE in mainstream.

@eatsleepread

Then one day, as I was on my way to a meeting with a TA, I passed by my sons class, he was by the corner, playing with Playdoh whilst all the other kids were doing their work. I thought- Ohno, he is just being babysat.

Very sad, but sadly unsurprising to me!
Some parents with additional needs children in mainstream would be shocked, if a fly on the wall.

That's very true but most SEND parents realise very quickly that places in specialist schools are scarce, the majority are advised their child won't meet the criteria, regardless of the appropriateness of mainstream schooling. Often (& more helpfully), mainstreams who have designated (extra funded) specialist provisions are the only and best compromise. It's an unenviable position to be in .

When my son started in foundation he had a classmate who was entirely non verbal and not toilet trained. Mum felt strongly he would do best and be 'the best he could be' in mainstream. Family members felt she was in denial and fell out with her over it. 4/5 mainstream schools said no as his needs were too severe. She was so determined to get the best for her son-an absolute warrior.

I think foundation was fine as it is mostly learning through play and short bursts of learning. But by year 2 when the class were chanting times tables and preparing for SATS he was so separate and isolated that i wondered if he was really in the best place for him. His peers had lost interest (brutal but true) as by now they found the smells Embarrassing and the boys had become boyish and wanted to play football and this young man still played with toddler toys from programs. The children were always kind to him and celebrated his achievements but as they advanced the gap seemed to get bigger. Mum was slow to accept this and school advised he needed to move to special school and she fought them tooth and nail and lost and in the end he was asked to leave which was so sad. Finding a place was really hard and she received no support or guidance. Local schools were not
Well suited to his diagnosis but with him being that bit older by then (7) he was able to accept a place 1 hour away and be on school transport.

Ive heard similar with a neighbour being asked to remove her son yr 3/4.

My daughter is part of a small formally organised friendship group hosted by a boy in her classes 121. They take 3/4 kids off to work on his speech and they play games to encourage him. According to my daughter he is improving hugely.

My DS started in mainstream, went through KS1 with a full time 1:1 and it was a bumpy road but it worked okay for him.

Year 3 was a disaster and he moved to a special school for the start of year 4. We haven't looked back.

I am not sorry that we did mainstream at first, but I think there was much more support then than there is now. Be had a full team of professionals who supported school. I am a school governor and I dont see the same support for other children now.

If I had a diagnosis of cancer, I would want to see the oncologist, not the GP, and that is the main reason specialist provision was the right choice for dc from the age of 3. There have been ups and downs, that's normal, but it was absolutely the best decision I could have made.

My son has Down Syndrome and went to a mainstream nursery with a little experience of children with it. He was completely non verbal and completely impossible to toilet train due to an additional condition. He didn’t acknowledge the other children but would do his thing alongside.

I always wanted to continue mainstream education with him and went to visit a mainstream school which coincidentally was my old school in a different town. I would have been open to additional needs placements if I genuinely felt that mainstream was wrong after visiting. When I visited, I just knew. The school’s whole environment was just clearly right for him. Everything he needed at that point was put in his EHCP and in honesty I’ve been incredibly lucky because I’ve never had to fight for anything because it’s all been put in the paperwork each year and no one has challenged it. I know that most don’t have it that easy.

The school had access to a outside Speech and Language service and would take him out of school with other children to visit it. They had very highly trained staff, despite the fact that he was the only child with DS in the school. The Speech and Language service shut down in Yr 3 but because it was in the paperwork that he needed the input he was visited in school to continue working. He is included in everything in class and has an incredibly strong bond with his classmates, despite still being in nappies and being mostly non verbal. He does ‘talk’ but you have to know him to understand a lot of it. He was given a communication tablet last year and this will hopefully start bridging the gap.

In YR 3 there was discussion about whether mainstream was still the right course for him. I visited an additional needs school where a lot of local children with DS have gone and just knew that he wouldn’t thrive there. There was no expectation, nothing to work towards. It was like being babysat there.

So I said no, he’s staying. The school paid out of their budget ( not his from the council) for extra training for the staff and he’s now the first child they’ve had with DS to make it through to Yr 6. He’ll also be the first child with it to go to the secondary school I’ve chosen. Every decision has been supported by the school and his peer group they’ve been as proud of him as me for breaking down those barriers. He has strong friendships, is popular and is going to secondary with a lot of the same people.

Being honest, the academic stuff goes over his head, he is working at a very low level. But that was never my aim in him going to mainstream. He’s just not the type to work academically. His strengths are in what mainstream has given him in terms of social development. We are looking at him gaining a placement at a local college at 14 to train in horticulture, they train and have a recruitment system so at the end he’ll be trained and have a job. I believe it has been the time in mainstream that has made that a possibility.

As has been said, OP go to the schools, ask every question, ask how school will handle every problem you can think of and go from there. You’ll know if somewhere is right.

I work in a primary school with a resource base for children with autism. Sending a child with additionally needs such as your son appears to have to a mainstream school can work, but only if they have very few other children with SEN and lots of staff. He is unlikely to benefit much from being around children who don't have SEN, lots of parents say this to us and think their child will learn from the other children. I've not seen that happen.

As a parent you are likely to get mainstream if you want it. This is because cheapest option for your LA is a mainstream place. However, once he is in mainstream you will have enormous difficulties moving him to a special school if you later realise he's in the wrong setting.

Before you decide anything you should know the following:
EHCP money does not cover a 1:1 member of staff and most of it gets used on SALT or OT.
The school may not have any idea how to work with a child with complex needs, and a mainstream Reception class - busy, noisy, children often free flowing across several areas - can be overwhelming for children with ASC. School may not have anywhere quiet he can go if he is struggling.
To change a child in nappies takes two adults away from the setting while they do it, and this is not always practical as some setting will then be left without enough adults with the rest of the children. So school may ask if you can do some of the nappy changes. I know they are meant to be able to do this but in reality it's very hard.
In a specialist school your child will be working with highly trained adults and the setting will be tailored to his needs. He will make far more progress and the staff will have time to talk to you every day about what he has been learning. They will also be able to access any therapy or intervention he needs.

Every year we have some children who arrive in our Reception with complex SEN and most really struggle. They are not suited to the environment, which is not geared up to them and we try as hard as we can to do nurture groups, make quiet areas and use PECS but most of these children would be better off in a special school. By the time parents decide to send them to a special school, it's about a two year process, so the child is waiting in the wrong provision for a long time.

@ThisIsNotARealAvo

Just wondered, my child has had a 1:1 every day since reception as well as Speech and Language. If EHCP won’t cover a 1:1 does this mean the school will have been covering part of the cost? Or does the EHCP money vary from area to area?

Also re nappy changing, my DS is changed only by one person at a time. It’s done in the medical room, door open onto the reception office and they have a shower curtain pulled across for privacy so not alone and is public. It doesn’t bother me, but I suppose I never considered how other mainstream settings handled things.

MinnieKat probably they have been using other money to fund that. It can very a bit by area but where we are the top band children get about £14000, a TA earns more than that, especially when you take into account the on-costs a school has to pay for each member of staff. Also it depends who provides the SALT - here, children with an EHCP have it from the NHS, children without we have to find the money from the main school budget, which shrinks by about £350 each year. It's a desperate situation and I feel for all the children and families involved.

@PlantYourAlans

Although recently a very big pre schooler was reportedly taking notice of him By giving him a slap in the face for nicking his chips at teatime!

I was informed that DS didn’t blink but proceeds to try and steal kids food

When my ds was 19 months at private nursery he didn't nap and so would join the 2-3 yo for afternoon activities.

At some point one of them bit him. Staff didn't see it but saw the. Dry red raw mark on ds arm.

They were mortified and so apologetic I felt so bad for them. Obvious had empathy for ds but it clearly didn't bother him as much or he'd have reacted!

@MinnieKat
Just wondered, my child has had a 1:1 every day since reception as well as Speech and Language. If EHCP won’t cover a 1:1 does this mean the school will have been covering part of the cost? Or does the EHCP money vary from area to area?

Typically speaking, the school covers upto the first 10k from their budget with any EHCP funding as "top-up". That's why some EHCPs can be granted with no funding element at all. Even the maximum amount of EHCP funding does not covered everything a child who qualifies for the maximum amount requires.

OP
There are some children with ASD who do very well in mainstream, even when the start is difficult. Some children with ASD find being in mainstream very difficult but are still able to interact with the class to some degree. There are others who are in a mainstream setting but are, realistically, not part of their mainstream class at all, operating almost as a completely separate unit.

As previous posters have said, moving from mainstream into special provision can be very difficult and take years. It can also be extremely traumatic for the child because they have to be shown to not be coping and to be unable to cope even with support.

I honestly believe that we will look back in the future and feel shame over the number of children forced into inappropriate provision just to allow the Government to continue to underfund education and save money.

I honestly believe that we will look back in the future and feel shame over the number of children forced into inappropriate provision just to allow the Government to continue to underfund education and save money.

This. 100%.

I’ve not read the whole thread but in my experience if you can get special school from the offset go for special school. Unless you are lucky enough to get a really understanding and inclusive primary school then all being in mainstream will do is show your child how different they are. Due to budget/ofsted/results driven pressures a lot of schools seem to be very much one size fits all and if your child is outside of this they can’t cope and will make your life a nightmare. If mainstream doesn’t work out it’s then not just a case of switching to specialist it is likely to be a massive fight to get the la to offer a special school place which could take several years and your child could be out of school completely during that time. I think it’s worth visiting the mainstream/mainstreams they could potentially go to and explaining their needs. If the staff try and put you off at all or aren’t enthusiastic about your child coming then don’t touch with a barge pole. Some schools will openly say they can’t meet needs. Our case was slightly different as my child wasn’t diagnosed with asd until age 6 and he’s verbal and not in nappies but he had major issues in school from year 1 and it took us to year 4 to get a move to specialist.

In my experience, as a teacher who has taught similar children with severe SEN, they also do so much better in specialist settings.
We can never do as much as they can for the children. We don't have the staff, space or funding for resources.
Moreover the busy, fast paced school environment of mainstream is often too much for them and hinders progress and causes anxiety.
No one on this board can tell you if your son's needs are severe enough to be in this category.
My advice is go for a specialist placement. If he doesn't get a place it likely means he isn't in this severe category and can cope in mainstream.

I think you have to approach any feasible schools on offer and talk to their SENCO's. Both mainstream and, even more so, special schools vary in their approach and provision they can offer to children with SEN. We sent ds1 and ds2 to different special schools (on paper they have similar difficulties and the schools both claimed to cater for HFA). One was a success. One a disaster. You need to visit (most likely more than once), ask lots of questions and see how the staff interact with the children to see if you think if will suit your ds.

For our daughter (who sounds like her asd presents very similar to your child) the choice to send to an SEN school was based on a few major factors..

1. Staff numbers - Her class a 12:5 adult to child ratio. In mainstream she would have had a 1:1 but for the most part be lost in a sea of 30 children.

1. Socialisation - in an SEN other children require help with social skills so help with this incorporated into every part of the day. We felt in mainstream, as she would be the only one with this severity of delay, it would be difficult and unfair for them to constantly feed this need with the other children

1. Facilities - DDs school includes heated indoor therapy pool, light room, touch screen PC suite, soft play room, outdoor therapy garden, constant access to outside (covered and AstroTurfed garden).

1. Staffing - I cannot praise or thank Dds school enough. They toilet trained DD along side me, cold turkey no nappies. All of DDs schooling is individualised to her and her needs. As it is an SEN school they their own SaLT therapists and NHS nurses team so I don't have to drag DD to appointments all over the place as all her therapies are done in school hours.

For us an SEN school was the best choice for our DD. She is almost 6 and we were told by her teacher recently that she is showing signs that she can become conversational .

What sort of questions do you think one should ask a mainstream primary SENCO lead to ascertain their provision if you need to decide between that and specialist provision?

Sorry that should say 12:5 child to adult ratio

If you are asking questions of a mainstream senco - its partly the attitude rather than the specific questions. Did they call back quickly, did they give you time and listen, did they meet you on the tour, did they sounds positive and can-do. You will know what i mean when you speak to a few. When i looked some refused to speak to me at all!

In terms of specifics. I think i would be asking if they have an experience of any specific things your child needs like pecs, what outside support they access (eg my school regularly has an autism specialist school visit us for training and they gave advice on our classroom layouts and gave us verbal communication training). Look for evidence that things like visual timetables are on the walls and are just part of everday practice. How do they use their TAs, what training they have.