Re DD and our shambolic bedtimes?

[WinningTheThread]

DD is 11 and has ASD. She is emotionally very immature but frankly I feel is taking the utter piss at bedtime (unintentionally but still so very infuriating!).

I’m to bed early each night myself as I have to be up early for work so I have a limited amount of me time ... which she keeps taking up each and every night. I have had enough!

She wants me to get in her bed every night to cuddle . I don’t mind this and do it but sometimes I’m just too bloody knackered and I just want to go to bed myself.

She repeatedly asks for hugs and kisses. Repeatedly! She has me back and forth like a damned yo-yo giving her kisses and hugs. When I point out that she’s already had a hug and a kiss , she goes on and on, cries, shouts the house down and it goes on for hours.

Or she will shout for other things that she “needs” right that second. Again, it drags on and on if she doesn’t get it.

She will shout of me to come up again and when I’m clearly cross she will say “it doesn’t matter... you’re angry anyway “. I’ll go back down only for her to shout again because she needs me to do what she originally shouted of me for!

She then starts the same process with DH.

Last night I had already given her two hugs and kisses , about 15 minutes apart and as I had got in to bed she shouted again. I said no that’s enough and an hour later she was still screaming about it . When she’s upset she becomes volatile and tells me I hate her or that I’m ruining her life (I get this and more , daily) I ended up leaving DH to deal with it and went out for a drive .

She suffers with bad anxiety so this upset her more but I was about to blow my lid so I wanted to just get out for a bit . This is every damned night!

WIBU for not just giving her the kiss and hug? I’m so torn between anger and guilt I can’t work out if AIBU?

Please be gentle. Life is very tough at the minute

I don’t have a child with ASD so I can’t comment on the challenges around disciplining a child with this however what you describe is simply not sustainable and you would need the patience of Job to deal with it. You are better placed than anyone else to know if she is taking the piss but if she was I would show zero tolerance.

How’s she been over lockdown? My DD11 has been very anxious this time and bedtimes have become protracted affairs with lots of excuses for coming back down stairs and not being able to sleep. In addition to her ASD this might be having an effect on her?

Keep trying the Smiling Mind / Head space stuff. My 14yo only ever found one she liked (Cat Marina on Headspace) and it's like magic. She's funny now, says she doesn't want it on as she's pissed it works so well

But yes - sleep is hard. Having always struggled, I slept in with her all night, every night for 18 months (12.5 to 14) and then suddenly, got her a new bed and some new sheets and she's slept alone every night since. She's never before slept through in her life, now it's every night. I don't know what's made her left go of the anxiety as she's still the same about other areas, but thank goodness! Fingers crossed it happens for yours soon too.

(No one understands what it's like til they're living it. I had comments like the PP from friends and it was heart breaking that people thought it was my fault. Don't take it personally )

Can you use numbers and say she has 5 shouts and she has to use them wisely, so she can have 5 kisses, 5 hugs, a glass of water + 4 kisses and each time you go in remind her how many ‘shouts’ she has left and hopefully it will give her some more control over the situation and she’ll really think about what she needs at bedtime?

OP I have no real advice to offer but could have written your post! My 12 year old (no asd) is exactly the same and it's exhausting! Clingy with constant demands, still pottering at 1130, philosophical discussions beginning at 10.30!! I'm hoping that it's a normal part of growing up and that she'll grow out of it. I've explained that I'm exhausted and that if she's not going to bed I am! Friends with older ones have said that bedtime gets later and later and that you just have to leave them to it! Good luck to you, I am now refusing to yo-yo from 10 so that I can at least watch the news in peace!!

How is she during the day? Does she display the same behaviours?
Trying to understand if this is an anxiety around sleep thing and trying to postpone it. Has she always been like this?

Is there any chance that at least a few days a week you can get your "me time" much earlier? Will she entertain herself for a few hours while DH watches the younger kids so you get time for a bath, read a book ,just lie in bed and count the white spots on the ceiling in silence? For your own sake too. If your needs are met on a constant basis and feel less deprived you might be better able to deal with her behaviour at bedtime. That doesn't mean you have to give in and jump when she says, just less likely to lose it.

How is she about expressing feelings and what she needs? Not in the middle of it,but when calm ,relaxed and bedtime a long long way away. Can you figure out why she needs all this. What worries her?

Do you spend enough time 1 to 1 with her?

How structured are her evenings? Have you tried a now and next board?

Did anything ever helped,even for a little while ?

I do apologise for all the questions, and please don't think I'm in any way blaming you.

sunshine has a good suggestion a visual with the shouts/callbacks is a great idea and could help

My ds was younger and went thorough a thankfully short period of keep shouting me back for this and that. Financial incentives worked well. 20 p under his pillow when he woke up if he went straight to sleep.
Inflation will be at least a pound now I assume!!
He is 26 now!!
And he is a total sloth!! Even has an afternoon nap given the chance!

My asd dd has a lot of anxiety too, and likes a chat and cuddle at bedtime for anything up to half an hour. She doesn’t like much physical contact until she’s tired, and so I go with it and carve out the time for her.

My bedtimes with 11 year old dd are similarly shambolic. I’d planned to crack down over the Easter holidays yet here I am lying in her bed yet again while she falls asleep.
We have slight progress in that she’ll stay in her room by herself from ‘bedtime’ but still needs me to come and finish off the job of falling asleep. Otherwise she gets really upset that she can’t sleep and panics that she’ll be ill the next day.
Never been a good sleeper. We’ve done crackdown after crackdown since she was born.
One day I dream of saying goodnight at 9pm and then not seeing her til the morning.

We had big issues with our autistic and PDA 9 year old at bedtime, his anxiety meant he was very disruptive when we were trying to settle his younger siblings.
Things are (currently!) a lot better and thorough a process of trial and error, what has worked for us is -
Magnesium muscle rub spray and bath salts
His own Alexa in his room - this does a number of things, firstly he can listen to his favourite music and podcasts about his special interests, secondly it has reminders on it for when to brush teeth, get uniform out etc, and thirdly he can 'drop in' on our downstairs Alexa whilst I'm tidying up to have a quick chat rather than me going up and down the stairs every 2 mins. These have all really helped with his anxiety.
If he 'behaves himself' for 2 nights (lets me read to his brother and sister, no door kicking, no major disruptions), on the second night he's allowed back down once fully ready for bed to watch 'the chase' with me (his choice!) - this is a huge treat and seems to be the motivation he needed to make bedtimes better.

This may all be totally unusable for your family but thought I'd share in case of any use.

My DD has ASD I recognise the shouting & shouting until she gets an answer usually it's me being helping wash her hair but can be anything. I've explained multiple times about waiting or trying herself but come to realise she's so hyperfocused she can't do that I imagine your DD behaviour could be similar.

Luckily she is the only child with ASD I know who loves sleep! But her brother more than makes up for it.

All sounding depressingly familiar... asd DS 10 is terrible at going to sleep and worse now after the last year... takes hours.

@Sickoffamilydrama my ASD daughter loves her bed too thankfully! Once she is finally asleep she is asleep all night.

I had a child similar (not asd but had been through trauma)
She starting going to bed wearing my dressing gown which helped a lot.

I have a much younger child but I'm afraid I've become very stern (and a little shouty) around bedtimes lately as they were mucking around, banging on walls, calling out and taking toys into their bed. This seems to have done the trick. Occasionally there is a quiet request for a drink or a cuddle, which I just give quickly and don't make a big thing of, but otherwise they have to stay in their room and be quiet and they know I will go and do other things. I remind them if they're anxious that I will come back and check on them in a few minutes (by which time they're normally asleep). Sleep is precious and learning to fall asleep by yourself is an important skill, so imo definitely worth being a bit unpleasant even if you feel like the world's worst mum until the message gets through.

Though should say we don't have the ASD complication here so no experience of whether the "mean" approach is appropriate in your circumstances. But it's worked for us.

Thanks everyone .

On reflection I feel terrible now as a pp pointed out that it is a need to control things and I feel I’ve let her down by not giving in.

I could only live in the moment and I had just had enough of years and years of this nonsense. Her behaviour through the day is similar and I’m just exhausted with it.

I never get an evening to myself because I have to give all three children the same as each other . If one gets an extra hug, the other two want them. I know they doesn’t sound horrific but I spend hours going from room to room repeating the things I’ve already done!

She will also shout even if I’ve told her very clearly I am going to sleep ; she’s woken me up on many occasions just as I’m drifting off. I’m then very cranky because I’m so sick of the constant interruptions!

The pp who suggested Alexa .... she had one but we removed it because if we didn’t come up when she shouted she just started announcing via Alexa and disturbing the whole household.

I’ve explained to her that I understand she is worried and she needs certain things at times but also that I am only human and I find it hard sometimes to keep up with her demands!

Today I will design a social story and explain exactly what is going to happen at bedtime. The pass ideas are a good idea but unfortunately wouldn’t work for her or us. All the children would expect passes .

Don’t feel bad OP. You’re exhausted. It’s horrible being constantly “on” with a SN child. You’re doing you’re very best for her.

My 13 year old DD is similar and has ASD. We've gone through long periods of having to cuddle her to sleep, sleeping on her floor, sitting on the stairs for hours, getting up to reassure her up to 10 times etc so I feel your pain. DH and I have tried so hard to be kind and supportive but sometimes when you're getting no sleep it's unbearable and we have shouted and said things we shouldn't have. It's hard not to see it as just unkindness or messing about. I even tried telling DD about how much sleep adults need and it didn't help.

We saw an occupational therapist who specialises in autism and she said that night time can be very hard for people with ASD as they are alone with their thoughts. So during the day they can distract themselves but at night their thoughts come crowding in and it causes anxiety.

DD was fine with sleeping while she shared a room with her brother and she's fine if someone else is in the room. She's more challenging at bedtime for me than for DH but she has a different relationship with me and I can't leave it all to DH. The GP prescribed melatonin but she won't take it. Calm sounds didn't help she won't have anything plugged in over night so we could use Alexa etc for sounds (plus she hates 'airy fairy' stuff as she calls it!

Some things which helped:
A ladder chart where our goals was that she went to bed completely on her own. Each rung of the ladder is a step towards that with a little reward.

Cards against anxiety - it's £6 in the works. It's a set of cards with anxiety reducing strategies (plus a book with info on each strategy) DD will pick a random number and we will do whatever is on that card.

DD deciding on her own that she wanted to be 'grown up' and so she's moving slowly towards the top of her 'ladder' - you need to accept there will be set backs. DD watched a scary film yesterday online with her friends as she was too anxious to say no and so I spent most of last night in her room!

Anyway, you're not the only one

Oh I feel your pain OP. We go through similar with my DS who also has asd. I have to sit with him every night until he’s tired enough. We have tried everything apart from melatonin.

I’m fed up to the back teeth of people suggesting reward charts, marble jars, etc etc. Tried the whole fucking lot.

When she shows she can get to sleep 'on time' or within 15 mins of getting into bed then she can go to bed later.

Can you go to sleep on demand like that? I can't and couldn't as a child either.

I think some of the answers are from parents who don't have children with ASD so (understandably) they are offering solutions about being firm etc which don't really work. However there is some use in thinking about setting clear expectations because many children with ASD do need that certainty in order to feel safe. With DD we have an agreed plan about when she will switch off her devices - and then she has strict rules around what she can accept eg I have to watch TV for 30 minutes with her and then she will brush her teeth etc. So it's about finding a solution you can all live with - but I do try to not give on to all her anxieties as I know she wants to do things like sleepovers (when allowed!) which aren't possible unless she can manage night time without me or her dad

@SunshineLollipopsRainbow

I've seen a method used, I haven't used it myself as my child is too young but it might help. Give her 3 'call back passes so that's 3 times she can call you back for whatever she wants. When you go back you collect one of the passes and if she uses all 3 you don't return. In the morning see how many passes she still has. Set a prize for her holding onto x amount of passes. You'll probably find she uses them all to begin but the aim is that she calls you less so she holds onto her passes to win prize.

This is a good idea!

Sounds really difficult OP, hope you manage to work it out.

Is she scared of being alone at night?
An amber nightlight might help, or reading. It's hard to expect kids to sleep alone, I still sleep terribly if DH isn't in bed with me