Universities no longer to required to expect good written/spoken English as it is “elitist”

[jacks11]

I have just read this in The Times. I am appalled! I think this is a retrograde step. Apparently it is to close the attainment gap between higher and lower socio-economic groups and also between white and other ethnic groups. Is it not rather insulting to suggest we ought to expect lower standards from these groups?

Surely, if we have identified that there is an issue in terms of literacy/communication, then we should focus on improving those in schools. For those struggling at university, provision should be made to support the student to gain these skills. For those who have a genuine SEN (e.g. dyslexia) it is obviously appropriate to have particular arrangements for that student. What is ludicrous is suggesting literacy and accuracy in both oral and written work is no longer required. To suggest it is “elitist” is, in my view, a travesty.

At university level you must be able to communicate clearly and proficiently in both oral and written work. It is not a “nice to have”. It is essential for many reasons. I fear this country is becoming devoid of all sense and rigour, sacrificed on the supposed alter of “inclusiveness” and “fairness”- utterly wrongly. Inclusiveness can be achieved in far more sensible and effect ways.

I don’t understand why expecting literacy and a clear grasp of written and spoken English at university level is “elitist”.

The irony of your misspelling ‘altar’ towards the end of that diatribe.

We now expect 50% of young people to go to university (I don’t agree with this, but that is for another day). Many of those will be from the more marginalised groups you have set out here. I agree that we should be working hard in schools to improve literacy and reasoning skills.

But systemic changes don’t happen overnight, so it is unfair in the meantime, until things are better in schools, to penalise further those who don’t lack intelligence or aptitude, but whose spelling and grammar might not be at the sort of level you are expecting. These skills can be improved dramatically through just the sort of reading, discussion and writing needed to do well at university. Three years is a long time, in which such young people can grow and flourish. Why shouldn’t they have a chance to catch up with their more fortunate peers?

I doubt they mean accepting people who write in emoji. Just acknowledging that pupils from certain backgrounds will have had more opportunity to develop their communication skills, which is a good thing. I remember at university you could instantly tell who had gone to private school because they were skilled at oral presentation, something I'd done maybe once in my life? You need role models to encourage people into university so you can't 'wait' for the many years it would take to improve literacy of key groups in schools.

It shouldn't be a race to the bottom but there are more important qualities in a university candidate than knowledge of grammar rules.

I'm dyslexic and autistic, but was undiagnosed at school which meant, aswell as having those difficulties, I also lacked education in English because I didn't get support so couldn't even make a start on learning.
I was, however, exceptional at maths and science, which was enough right up to university. Then all of a sudden I also needed to be good at English. Which is honestly bullshit. I understood the topics, I could explain, but because I didn't pretty it up, I scored lower.

Particularly in subjects like physics and other sciences, advancement of the field is the priority, they're pushing out people who would be exceptional scientists, because they're not good at something that is mostly irrelevant.

So yeah, I'm glad degrees will be graded on someone's skill in that subject and not another subject.

Is it not rather insulting to suggest we ought to expect lower standards from these groups?

It’s more insulting to pretend everyone has had exactly the same advantages in life, and that if you can’t communicate as well as somebody educated at Harrow, it’s because you are thick or lazy and not because your school focused on dragging everyone through maths and English GCSE.

Surely, if we have identified that there is an issue in terms of literacy/communication, then we should focus on improving those in schools

That’s not really with universities’ power though, is it? This isn’t government policy, it is individual universities deciding they can’t wait for the Tories to give a shit about kids in poor areas, and doing what they can in the meantime.

Certainly our university spends plenty of money bringing people up to speed in the first year, with extra English language support.

No one else seems to have spotted that it mentions 'elitist, white men'. I guess women still don't count.

I worked for several years supporting SMEs in grant applications and was very taken aback by the poor standard of literacy. Some were so bad, that it was almost impossible to understand what they wanted. Not only was their English poor (and not only from second-language speakers), but their ability to express an idea comprehendingly was largely absent. If the standard in Universities is this bad, they will be unable to demonstrate their abilities in any subject.

The irony of your misspelling ‘altar’ towards the end of that diatribe.

And the mistake in the title.

Is it not rather insulting to suggest we ought to expect lower standards from these groups?

No. Either those groups are significantly more likely to have had worse schooling, or they are not. If they are, then there is not a level playing-field. That is not a failing on the part of the students concerned, so why should it be considered insulting?

It's all very well to say we should be improving literacy in schools. Do you not think schools are always trying to do that? There is no immediate or magic solution to the obstacles which make that difficult. Saying 'Oh yes, we must do something about that!' is not going to help the thousands of disadvantaged children in the meantime.

If you want to study for a degree, then you need to have a high enough standard of written English, otherwise you shouldn't be going to university in the first place.

@expectopelargonium

If you want to study for a degree, then you need to have a high enough standard of written English, otherwise you shouldn't be going to university in the first place.

I agree with this. I have a lot of social interactions with people online who don't speak English as a first language, they think our lax attitude is pretty awful. Having your work corrected isn't insulting, it's preparing you for the real world. Accuracy is valued in a lot of professions. I was tasked with going through CVs once and rejecting any with spelling errors. Harsh, but they didn't want anyone that would be careless about selling themselves. (I don't proof read forum posts if anyone feels the urge to go through with a red pen)

If you're studying for a degree in an English subject..then yes you should have a high standard of English. But why should someone who is amazing at maths for example be excluded from higher education because they are not great at writing an essay? I am aware that maths students need to write essays too, but the standard of English doesn't need to be as high.

How do the universities know the level of written English the UK candidates have?
The personal statement isn't that long and should have been through several set of eyes before submission. It isn't an essay, it doesn't need a particular style.

It isn't like applying in the US where students write several essays.

Imagine suggesting that ethnic minorities and the working classes should be held to lower standards because of their 'worse schooling'. What happened to high expectations for all?

OP, you need to look up "travesty" in a dictionary. It doesn't mean what you think it means. You're a little too complacent about your own English.

Perhaps ask MNHQ to edit your title if you would like to be taken seriously on the matter.

The decline in literacy standards in universities is already happening, and IMO, it is partly because the unis want to take loads of international students as they pay much more. Academics have been observing an overall lowering of English language standards driven by this trend for sometime. As with many other things, it's short termist, because as the standard and reputation of British unis decline, we will kill the goose that lays that particular egg, which is a big 'export' for the economy.

Standards for English are low, and have been dropping notably for the last ten or 15 years or so. We've had native-born, English-only speakers leaving school who are close to not being functionally and fluently literate in their own and only language. Certainly, they aren't up to the academic writing standard previously needed for University admission.

Schools are making significant efforts to correct this and have markedly increased the rigour for teaching in English, but its only in the last few years and it takes time for the first children to come though the new system. It's also compounded by the fact that we have a generation of parents with low ability and skill modelling this to their children in the home - see all the jokes/complaints about it during Lockdown.

In the meantime, either we accept that students are reaching University age without good ability and skills, and compensate - or we don't.

By accepting it, particularly outside of the Arts, we give the bright but poorly-taught/poorly-exposed kids currently reaching admissions age a chance to progress. I highly doubt that they will leave universities - especially good universities - without the ability.

I don't like it either, on paper, but the alternative is to risk Universities becoming ever more the privilege of the native middle-classes, and that's not a good thing. Social mobility is poor in the UK anyway.

In a few years, it will likely self-correct naturally as the new curriculum drives the basic standard up again.

Ultimately for what purpose though? Lowering entry standards may get more people in but it is unlikely to result in better job offers. I’d rather see catch-up provision if there are students who need a bit more input. Someone with poor written skills will struggle to get through the assessments for most graduate level jobs.

I agree with the premise of the OP.

Why is it unreasonable to expect that undergraduates should be able to read and write competently, to express themselves in a way that others can comprehend and to be able to comprehend themselves, what they are being asked to do.

I agree too, that university shouldn’t be an option if your standard of written English is questionable. I do think that the expectation that 50% of young people should go to university is unrealistic and is potentially dumbing down university applicants.

I don’t think standards are high at present, so it won’t make much difference.

I used to work at a Russell Group University, reading applications from students for enterprise funding. In my 12 months in the job, I came across just one single application that was completely free from spelling mistakes or grammatical errors. More importantly, many applicants struggled to express what they wanted to do with the money. I found it very depressing.

It’s nothing to do with U.K. students it’s to allow more overseas students and their tuition fees in.
Universities are no longer ‘seats of learning’ they are businesses it’s as simple as that. They get more money from overseas students so will be targeting them by lowering the English language requirements.

@OpusAnglicanum

I don’t think standards are high at present, so it won’t make much difference.

I used to work at a Russell Group University, reading applications from students for enterprise funding. In my 12 months in the job, I came across just one single application that was completely free from spelling mistakes or grammatical errors. More importantly, many applicants struggled to express what they wanted to do with the money. I found it very depressing.

University shouldn’t take a capital letter here.

@Foxyloxy1plus1

I agree with the premise of the OP.

Why is it unreasonable to expect that undergraduates should be able to read and write competently, to express themselves in a way that others can comprehend and to be able to comprehend themselves, what they are being asked to do.

I agree too, that university shouldn’t be an option if your standard of written English is questionable. I do think that the expectation that 50% of young people should go to university is unrealistic and is potentially dumbing down university applicants.

You should have used a question mark.

@ginnybag

Standards for English are low, and have been dropping notably for the last ten or 15 years or so. We've had native-born, English-only speakers leaving school who are close to not being functionally and fluently literate in their own and only language. Certainly, they aren't up to the academic writing standard previously needed for University admission.

Schools are making significant efforts to correct this and have markedly increased the rigour for teaching in English, but its only in the last few years and it takes time for the first children to come though the new system. It's also compounded by the fact that we have a generation of parents with low ability and skill modelling this to their children in the home - see all the jokes/complaints about it during Lockdown.

In the meantime, either we accept that students are reaching University age without good ability and skills, and compensate - or we don't.

By accepting it, particularly outside of the Arts, we give the bright but poorly-taught/poorly-exposed kids currently reaching admissions age a chance to progress. I highly doubt that they will leave universities - especially good universities - without the ability.

I don't like it either, on paper, but the alternative is to risk Universities becoming ever more the privilege of the native middle-classes, and that's not a good thing. Social mobility is poor in the UK anyway.

In a few years, it will likely self-correct naturally as the new curriculum drives the basic standard up again.

You need to check on your capitalisation.

Adequate English would do for me.

Etc.