Universities no longer to required to expect good written/spoken English as it is “elitist”

[jacks11]

I have just read this in The Times. I am appalled! I think this is a retrograde step. Apparently it is to close the attainment gap between higher and lower socio-economic groups and also between white and other ethnic groups. Is it not rather insulting to suggest we ought to expect lower standards from these groups?

Surely, if we have identified that there is an issue in terms of literacy/communication, then we should focus on improving those in schools. For those struggling at university, provision should be made to support the student to gain these skills. For those who have a genuine SEN (e.g. dyslexia) it is obviously appropriate to have particular arrangements for that student. What is ludicrous is suggesting literacy and accuracy in both oral and written work is no longer required. To suggest it is “elitist” is, in my view, a travesty.

At university level you must be able to communicate clearly and proficiently in both oral and written work. It is not a “nice to have”. It is essential for many reasons. I fear this country is becoming devoid of all sense and rigour, sacrificed on the supposed alter of “inclusiveness” and “fairness”- utterly wrongly. Inclusiveness can be achieved in far more sensible and effect ways.

I don’t understand why expecting literacy and a clear grasp of written and spoken English at university level is “elitist”.

Pissedoffprof thank you for answering my question.

@PissedOffProf - in the present circumstances as in their money making mill status and over-reliance on international students ?
In the long term if basic standards are not upheld a degree will be worthless.
Doubly so to international students as having a U.K. degree means that your English is of a high standard, making you valuable to multinational corporate employers and governments. Of course rich students with family businesses don’t care but they all go to international school and speak good English anyway.
I say this as a former international student.
From the local side if students don’t meet standards effort should be made to teach, not to just accept it...that ignores the problem

TheLastLotus, I totally sympathise with your position. The dumbing down that is happening in universities is shocking. But the point that I am trying to make that combatting this dumbding down from within the current university is not possible. A university is a self-financing business that needs to make money and compete with other universities. If you raise English language standards in your institution, students will just go elsewhere. This applies to the majority of institutions, with exception of a few elite place that are so prestigious, they would recruit even if they charged students a hundred grand for the priviledge of cleaning their toilets (I am exaggerating slightly).

Resources are also incredibly tight in a modern UK university. Tons of money goes on glitsy buildings and marketing. Academic staff, on the other hand, are increasingly casualised, with many paid below the minimum wage and working on short-term contracts. Those on permanent contracts also do not have job security (look at what's happening in places like Leicester) and are habitually overworked.

The students that we get very often have sever gaps in learning. I, for instance, regularly get overseas students who are only able to communicate in English through Google Translate. There is no space or resources within a three-year UG programme to address such tremendous difficulties.

In order for things to change, universities must stop being businesses and be properly resourced. So please, if you care about degree standards, participate in political campaigns that aim to return universities to public ownership and control. Education is a public good, not a private benefit.

The students that we get very often have sever gaps in learning. I, for instance, regularly get overseas students who are only able to communicate in English through Google Translate

How do they understand lectures? Or are interpreters provided?

@PissedOffProf I agree with most of your points , you especially about public funding. Am slightly conflicted about implementation though.
In my opinion a traditional 3 year degree should be reserved for the academically inclined. And a degree should have a high amount of fairly heavy academic content.
Things which don’t fit the above criteria should not be sold as degrees. As diplomas or professional qualifications - absolutely. But not degrees.
I believe everyone should have some form of higher qualification after leaving school/A-levels. But not necessarily university. Giving my example of accounting - the professional qualifications are sufficient. Continuous professional development through online courses offered by training bodies, reading publications etc.
The government be made to fund the right educational mix to fit the skill level needs of the country. Anything else should be self funded.
Some people argue that unis ‘teach critical thinking’ but this comes from debate and discussion in an academic environment. Not happening in uni courses where students just fill worksheets, pass exams and aren’t very academically inclined in the first place.

In my experience as an English teacher of native and non-native speakers, it is absolutely not the latter who have the poorest levels of literacy. Those are always native speakers. EAL students have a much stronger understanding of grammar and, generally speaking, a much broader vocabulary.

@TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross thanks - the assumption held by quite a few posters that it's always the international/non native speakers that have a poor grasp of the English language is shocking really and the assumption that all universities lower the standards for international students isn't true! I'm a non - native speaker and would be horrified (and annoyed!) if people think that the only reason I got into a UK university is because of lower entry requirements (which was not true at all).

@Andante57

The students that we get very often have sever gaps in learning. I, for instance, regularly get overseas students who are only able to communicate in English through Google Translate

How do they understand lectures? Or are interpreters provided?

The ones on DH’s MA a few years ago could read and write English perfectly, just couldn’t speak or understand spoken English very well (and they are different skills - I am similar with German).

They didn’t do much in the lectures, but made up for it by doing loads of reading, and writing great essays. They ended up with perfectly fine marks (obviously assessed to the same standard as everyone else).

I always find this debate to be fascinating. After years working in a university as an editor, I am now work in private industry as an industrial technical editor (more money, less politics).

And let me tell you, grammar is very important. I deal with technical documents that have been so badly written that, were they to be published, it would cost the company a great deal of money because consumers would inevitably make operational mistakes.

Indeed, I've reviewed some documents where the directions were so confusing, I suspect that if consumers had followed the instructions, they may very well have blown up the product by accident.

An excellent grasp of grammar is not elitist. What a lot of people seem to forget is that good grammar is fundamentally about simplicity. It is about "reducing" language down, not puffing it up with frippery and latinate phrases or euphemisms. Less is always more.

If you have good grammar skills, what you write in English should be easy for a foreign national with an intermediate level of English to understand. I see it as writing "democratically": that is, creating text to be understood by the largest number of people.

In my experience, poor grammar is inevitably an issue of too many words of too great a complexity in all the wrong places. It speaks of unordered thoughts just crashing through someone's head.

As I pointed out upthread, I'm at a continental university where the postgraduate courses are taught mainly in English and the working language is English. Students from all over the world. Poor written English wouldn't cut it here and is criticised and marks deducted - its part of the official marking policy. Many students spend money on proof reading their essays before submission (don't get me started on non-native English speakers who do that and get it wrong!) - I run a nice little sideline in doing so myself.

So please, if you care about degree standards, participate in political campaigns that aim to return universities to public ownership and control. Education is a public good, not a private benefit.

PissedOffProf I would be more than happy to do this and think marketisation has fucked over university staff and their students and the taxpayer too. And the student loans system is a whole other mess. Are there any such campaigns though?

The ones on DH’s MA a few years ago could read and write English perfectly, just couldn’t speak or understand spoken English very well (and they are different skills - I am similar with German).

They didn’t do much in the lectures, but made up for it by doing loads of reading, and writing great essays. They ended up with perfectly fine marks (obviously assessed to the same standard as everyone else).

Essay writing is a niche cottage industry, just saying.

Is this really a question? I think it's more important to learn another language.

Students are now the customers of universities. After paying a lot of money, the customer expects to be able to purchase their degree, it is no longer something earned on merit. That is equality, we have build the rod for our own back.

I don't think that's necessarily the problem. After all, American universities cost a lot and they still require composition or other writing classes (along with a quotient of maths, science, and humanities plus in some cases a mfl) in order to graduate.

Selective universities where students are expected to have an excellent command of English require 'core' experiences where students grapple with major themes in culture, history, mathematics, science, social science, arts and humanities as their introduction to university level work.
college.uchicago.edu/academics/core-curriculum

There is a little element of 'storming the Bastille' to the thinking around university access in the UK.

Please correct me, but English seems one of the languages that is most open to assimilating anything put in front of it and then merrily treating it as part of the language going forward.

This includes the influence of American English that due to film, television and music is ever present.

Vocabulary may change, and spelling can vary (dropping the U in American English for instance) but grammar and punctuation remain constants, and the need to express oneself in a way that is clear and unambiguous remains. Americans who have been taught to write can communicate in writing despite the dropping of the U in some words, and despite some vocabulary innovations that set American English apart from British English. Similarly, literature in English by Irish authors is well established in the literary canon.

The line between aspiration and god-given right has become blurred, aided and abetted by nervous institutions who are desperate to appear inclusive.

YYY to that @IrmaFayLear.

@Teddyandsuzie

So sad that the focus is on universities to lower standards, rather than putting pressure on schools to raise standards.

It’s failing young people, but trying to disguise it.

There’s already a lot of pressure, bureaucracy and red tape in schools. The children that pick up spoken and written language quickly are the ones who are supported and encouraged at home. There’s only so many hours in a day. If parents don’t encourage a love of learning and practise reading at home, then it’s not likely that the child will be top in the class. The younger you are when you learn to read and write, the more natural it will feel to spell and use grammar and punctuation correctly.

There’s a letter from a business owner in the Telegraph repeating a comment from upthread, namely when a job advertisement has a large number of applications they chuck out all those with poor grammar and bad spelling.
So these universities claiming spelling and grammar don’t matter aren’t doing their students any favours.

@SushiYum it’s a more generalised issue.
The vast majority of people are capable of picking things up with good teaching.
Unfortunately the state of education in this country is so bad that teachers have no time to teach.
Parents fill in the gaps and those without are left to their own devices.
HE in their inclusivity rush ignores this ... I sometimes think that school education is more important than uni.
If you have the basics and knowledge of how to learn as a child you can learn anything.
If you don’t by the time you’re an adult it’s very difficult to fix...

There’s already a lot of pressure, bureaucracy and red tape in schools. The children that pick up spoken and written language quickly are the ones who are supported and encouraged at home.

Much of the bureaucracy and red tape doesn’t seem to have much purpose beyond showing you can handle bureaucracy and red tape either. Plus parents are a mixed bunch. Some of those who are not adequately supporting their child are too busy working all hours they can get. Libraries are needed too, to provide the resources: reading material costs money most don’t have. The spiralling destruction of our economy everywhere helps no one, and impacts everyone and everything.