Universities no longer to required to expect good written/spoken English as it is “elitist”

[jacks11]

I have just read this in The Times. I am appalled! I think this is a retrograde step. Apparently it is to close the attainment gap between higher and lower socio-economic groups and also between white and other ethnic groups. Is it not rather insulting to suggest we ought to expect lower standards from these groups?

Surely, if we have identified that there is an issue in terms of literacy/communication, then we should focus on improving those in schools. For those struggling at university, provision should be made to support the student to gain these skills. For those who have a genuine SEN (e.g. dyslexia) it is obviously appropriate to have particular arrangements for that student. What is ludicrous is suggesting literacy and accuracy in both oral and written work is no longer required. To suggest it is “elitist” is, in my view, a travesty.

At university level you must be able to communicate clearly and proficiently in both oral and written work. It is not a “nice to have”. It is essential for many reasons. I fear this country is becoming devoid of all sense and rigour, sacrificed on the supposed alter of “inclusiveness” and “fairness”- utterly wrongly. Inclusiveness can be achieved in far more sensible and effect ways.

I don’t understand why expecting literacy and a clear grasp of written and spoken English at university level is “elitist”.

I’ve been fascinated and horrified in equal measure at reading posts made since mine, which was the first reply to the OP, and I’m inclined to modify my support for this measure to a degree in light of what’s been said.

I have to confess that it’s almost 30 years since I took my first degree (when only about 10% of people went to university, there were no tuition fees and maintenance grants covered one’s costs), and that I am old enough to have taken ‘O’ levels and old-style ‘A’ levels, based solely on exams.

Although I came from a very ordinary and not very ambitious comprehensive school, I was taught to the standards that these exams required, which included essay writing skills for all humanities subjects, and marking which included spelling and grammar. I think that my view was based on standards having been broadly maintained at this level. I didn’t really understand how bad the situation had become, that children could leave school now, in the days of SATS and a national curriculum, with literacy so far below the levels of my own school days.

I think that in this light, universities should be setting standards for applicants which at least measure that their communication is readily comprehensible, and that they have some capacity for critical thinking. But as long as 50% of young people are expected to study at university level, this might be a losing battle, if all that PPs have said about current standards is true.

YANBU OP

The article only mentions University of Hull and UAL.

Who is 'telling' universities to do this?

The experience in the US of big name universities admitting some groups with a lower standard hasn't worked out particularly well for anyone, including those students. It's a way of avoiding the real problem, for the state, and making themselves look good while doing nothing, for the university.

Amen to that, though there has been a fair amount of confirmation bias involved in the perception of the students assumed to have been admitted and allowed to progress with lower grades and/or less ability.

Paternalism isn't the solution.

The idea that we live in a meritocracy is a false one.

And expecting 50% of people to get university degrees is stupid, too - a waste of their time and money and it IS an elitist state of affairs - it comes from a disrespect for other types of education and work.

YYY to that, @SmokedDuck

Yes, in US universities there is often a requirement to take composition classes, to try and get everyone on a level playing field.

Yes indeed - english.washington.edu/expository-writing-courses
Here ^ is a writing course list from the University of Washington, with the rationale behind the written English requirements set forth.

I agree that the focus on literature is misplaced in the UK. Maybe the assumption behind it is that students are literate, familiar with grammar and with the ins and outs of formal written language? It's a case of the cart before the horse.

@RobboCop

Maybe the whole concept of a graduate job is discriminatory and we should just scrap the requirement.

There are some jobs where a degree is a good thing, but in the vast majority of cases university degrees probably aren't necessary for the jobs that people have. Much more could be accomplished by on the job training and targeted vocational training in those instances.

In the most basic sense universities don't exist for vocational training at all, they exist to do research and produce new ideas, and disseminate those ideas into society.

Its hugely discriminatory. Totally unfair that universities 'pick' students based on their 'exam results'. Their should be equal access to unis for ALL students.

Employers will always prefer candidates with clearly communicated, articulate expression. If universities can teach that, great. But it’s certainly not ‘elitist’ to stick to the standard rules of a language, that’s just silly. It’s demonstrably excluding to use non-standard communication with lots of variations, particularly if the audience are non-native speakers of that language.

Does anyone have a link to the actual proposal to "drop requirements" for English language skills? Preferably an article not behind a paywall (Times is behind paywall)

my google skills have failed, I haven't found a single news article online about this.

'I tend to think that the ability to do that kind of high level thinking is connected to being literate. Both in the sense that a person who has the capability for higher level thinking is almost always capable of being really literate, but also to some degree a developed relation to language enables complex thinking. '

I agree with you, Smoked.
I suppose I meant the odd grammar or spelling mistake doesn't make a person 'not literate.' So higher level thinking plus the odd SPaG error is OK (and some dyslexic people are very intellectual).

It's the combination of poor literacy and poor thinking skills that are an issue with being accepted onto a university course.

In my year, the person who consistently gained A grades in his English Lit essays was Spanish. English was his second language. To say he was surprised at the lack of knowledge of his fellow students would understate it.

@RobboCop

I also feel that we're slowly turning into a society where it's becoming taboo to acknowledge that some people are just more capable than others. Not that this makes them better, but really it's not a good path to go down IMO. Sometimes you need the best of the best in a particular role where much is at stake - not just in business but in military, healthcare, crisis response etc.

Yes. now we are constantly told we can be anything we want, which began as a message about ending discrimination. Now it's taken to mean, I demand it, whether or not I've put the work in, or have the needed aptitude, skills and qualities to get it.

This is especially true for the younger generation, who in reality are being massively fucked over by the higher education industry, and then the employment industry (in terms of the short-term contracts, poor T&Cs and gig economy which is becoming the norm).

[quote FunnyWonder]@MasterBeth
It's 'neither Graduate nor University', not 'and' - if we're going down the road of correcting people's grammar. Oops ...[/quote]
I was just about to say the same.

Muprhy’s Law, in all its glorious splendour

@newstart1337

Its hugely discriminatory. Totally unfair that universities 'pick' students based on their 'exam results'. Their should be equal access to unis for ALL students.

So how would the universities deal with the problem of more applicants than places?

I think (hope) that @newstart1337 is being sarcastic here.

@RobboCop

There are some jobs where a degree is a good thing, but in the vast majority of cases university degrees probably aren't necessary for the jobs that people have. Much more could be accomplished by on the job training and targeted vocational training in those instances.

In the most basic sense universities don't exist for vocational training at all, they exist to do research and produce new ideas, and disseminate those ideas into society.

Absolutely agree.

My first 'serious' job required a degree but I'm not convinced that my English degree really helped me in project management any more than three years as a trainee supervisor would have, or just maybe any job considering I spent most of those three years drunk or stoned.

Writing skills were beneficial in my job as I had to assist with bids/proofing, but most of those skills didn't come from reading Ulysses and Frankenstein etc.

The problem with society is that we see education as only being about employment and not about being a person who is capable of moving through all aspects life in a considered and grounded manner.

Education is not merely training.

This is awful. We can't have people in qualified positions not knowing the difference between of and gave and don't and doesn't.

Poor grammar makes you sound very uneducated and you go to university for higher lever education so the idea is incongruous with the purpose.

Imagine professional emails saying "He must of completed that task yesterday" or "She don't like that"

Oh the irony that I posted that with a spelling mistake due to a sticking keyboard

I agree that this "prizes for all" and "anyone can do anything" has come home to roost.

The line between aspiration and god-given right has become blurred, aided and abetted by nervous institutions who are desperate to appear inclusive.

How about widening participation in sport? I am 5'3" and simply demand to be able to have a chance at the high jump. I should have an appropriately lowered bar. It is completely elitist that all high jumpers are nearly 7ft tall.

@expectopelargonium

If you want to study for a degree, then you need to have a high enough standard of written English, otherwise you shouldn't be going to university in the first place.

I agree with this. And in subjects like law, for example, I would have thought it absolutely bloody essential.

So sad that the focus is on universities to lower standards, rather than putting pressure on schools to raise standards.

It’s failing young people, but trying to disguise it.