AIBU - England couldn’t care less about Northern Ireland

[ThisThatTheOther]

Northern Ireland has seen a return to violence , petrol bombs etc every night for a week now. It’s dominated the headlines here in Ireland. People are worried as peace up north is so fragile. Listening to the radio yesterday an old advisor of Tony Blair was on to discuss. The radio host read out the top 8 listed stories on all main English sites and the violence of Northern Ireland didn’t even feature. It’s the top headline again in all major Irish publications this morning but not in English publications.

@LizzieAnt

Why on earth Ireland can’t be united as one country baffles me- it would make much more sense.

@Bitofanexpert
Because a large proportion of people in Northern Ireland identify as British, not as Irish, and they don't want to unite with Ireland.

They are not the majority they once were. They aren't even the majority now at Stormont. The census will prove for interesting reading as nationalists may well move into the majority for the first time. Unionists will have one vote like everyone else. The days of gerrymandering are over.

50%+1.

I think Arlene isn't a bad person. She has had severe trauma in her life. She carries around a lot of anguish over her childhood experiences, the treatment of her father and murder of her uncle. Despite being on the opposite side of the fence, I feel for her and that she never got the help she needed. Women are never heard, really. But unfortunately, she is not cut out to be a clear thinking, strategic first minister as a result.

I don't know about Arlene not being a bad person she's against women's rights for abortion, same sex marriage, has ignored the Noah Donohoe situation, instigated the violence happening now, calling veto against lockdown when NI was in a state.
Then hopping to number 10 but not without securing a large payment only to be shat on by Boris.
She is a wannabe Margaret Thatcher modelling herself between Thatcher and Paisley.
Then the rumours with her driver.
Lots of people in NI suffered as she did.
SF and the DUP never agree but she's in a league of her own poison.

Not surprising water cannons were only used in the nationalists catholic areas considering the loyalists had 7 nights of violence prior to the cannons being brought out.

*They are not the majority they once were. They aren't even the majority now at Stormont. The census will prove for interesting reading as nationalists may well move into the majority for the first time. Unionists will have one vote like everyone else. The days of gerrymandering are over. 50%+1.

Yes. I was just explaining, for those who mightn't be familiar with the situation, that a large percentage of those in NI consider themselves British, not Irish. The rioters at the moment do, for example, yet I'm sure there are 'what are the Irish doing now?' questions being asked in the UK at the moment.
To be honest, I'd be very worried about a united Ireland being formed on such a small majority. People being forced to be part of a country against their will doesn't work well. Peace is the ultimate aim here, and things were looking good for a while, but it's been messed up again.

Lizzie, I understand..I do. I have a mixed marriage and my children spend time with both families/cultures. I wouldn't have it any other way.

50%+1 has been enough all this time to maintain the union and so 50%+1 is enough to end it. We have GOT to stop thinking that unionists still rule this place and nationalists are gerrymandered. We all have one vote. One (Wo)Man, One Vote.

We nationalists were forced into a sectarian statelet...'A Protestant State for a Protestant People' as it was called. But now is the time for democracy. No more can one community dominate and oppress. Let's have the vote in ten years. Let's hear EVERY voice, not just the unionist ones.

Emerald I think she is (forgive me for diagnosing over the internet) probably mentally unsound. But yes....she is behaving despicably.

The real ire I have though is for Sammy Wilson. He called Catholics subhuman animals ffs. And Jim Alister is one major POS...do you remember he called for a Catholic family to be burned out?? And these men call themselves CHRISTIAN????????Stephen Nolan is another bloody shit stirrer. I can't stand him.

Arlene, for all her faults, gets all the flak but she has never been evil, I think.

I agree the crap falls on Arlene.
Stephen is a wee snake. 🐍🤣

@EmeraldShamrock

I agree the crap falls on Arlene. Stephen is a wee snake. 🐍🤣

😂🤣Isn't he?? Did you see he 'cropped' Tim McKane out of his pathetic show??

Aye Stephen is a shit stirrer for sure.

The question on Irish unity is one I think about all the time. As a nationalist, with strong GAA and Irish language roots I honestly don't know if I'd vote for a united ireland in the near future and it pains me to admit it. Ideologically I am all for it and I'm an Irish patriot through and through. I just don't think the republic wants us?

I'd need to be convinced though- the whole brexit shit show has made me even more aware how complex these issues of separating/ reunification would be. Practically I would need to know what it means for my family- economy, jobs, trade, travel, education, healthcare, pension, university etc etc.

As a nationalist, with strong GAA and Irish language roots I honestly don't know if I'd vote for a united ireland in the near future and it pains me to admit it. Ideologically I am all for it and I'm an Irish patriot through and through. I just don't think the republic wants us? I personally believe they do. Leo Varadkar certainly does and Micheàl Martin is extremely patriotic. People are raging at the riots, it may not be for decades but will happen.
Practically I would need to know what it means for my family- economy, jobs, trade, travel, education, healthcare, pension, university etc etc.
Pension is far higher in the republic. Students don't leave uni with debts those who need them get a grant not loans. Plenty of university high education options. Education is a much higher standard than the UK.
Not sure on jobs, trades, healthcare is good when available but it is scarce and waiting lists at long.
I'd think the 6 counties should keep the NHS compliments of the UK for 100 years as a thank you

@Roodicus21

Aye Stephen is a shit stirrer for sure.

The question on Irish unity is one I think about all the time. As a nationalist, with strong GAA and Irish language roots I honestly don't know if I'd vote for a united ireland in the near future and it pains me to admit it. Ideologically I am all for it and I'm an Irish patriot through and through. I just don't think the republic wants us?

I'd need to be convinced though- the whole brexit shit show has made me even more aware how complex these issues of separating/ reunification would be. Practically I would need to know what it means for my family- economy, jobs, trade, travel, education, healthcare, pension, university etc etc.

It's very simple....if you give two shits about your forebears suffering An Gorta Mór and every other horrific atrocity then of course you will vote to rid this island of British rule.

It’s not really about any of our forefathers though is it?
They are all dead
It’s about the future of our children that’s why any vote would have to be done carefully

@EmeraldShamrock perhaps from government but when I actually holiday in the 'south' ime people from the north are met with a lot of contempt, unless I go to a Gaeltacht area and start speaking fluent Irish where I am accepted and welcomed as a fellow Irish person and not a visitor. Yes I know lots of things are potentially better in the republic but it's more about how does education/ pension etc transfer over? I've paid into a uk pension for 20 years, what happens there?

@PhoenixandtheRug I really don't think it is that simple. Why would I sign up for something where I was financially worse off, less job opportunities (I work in a highly regulated area) , where my dc were disadvantaged because they have been taught a different curriculum etc. I would love a united ireland but it's never going to work peacefully unless the benefits outweigh the negatives for 'most ' people. The brexit shitshow has shown how things can be done so badly! This would need to be done very carefully given the additional sectarian challenges. Anyone who lives in a bubble thinking loyalists will just 'have to accept' a united ireland (even with a majority) are a bit away with the fairies.

@Roodicus21

Totally agree. Too much emphasis is spent on looking back at what the forefathers fought for or suffered on both sides and no planning or thought has ever gone into the future and how a United ireland would ever work in practice.

THEN! There needs to be a period uniting of hearts and minds.

Merely uniting the land politically is simply not going to cut it and the conflict will only continue.
At the minute all everyone does is throw out very unhelpful comments referring back to the past as a tit for tat “our forefathers had to do this so you must also”

I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to a United ireland in the future but if the vote came up right today I would currently vote to stay in the Uk and ironically I can tell you my catholic father would too

but when I actually holiday in the 'south' ime people from the north are met with a lot of contempt, unless I go to a Gaeltacht area and start speaking fluent Irish where I am accepted and welcomed as a fellow Irish person and not a visitor
I'm truly surprised at that DP has been living in Dublin 10 years we moved down from Belfast his gets lots of compliments on his accent and lots of interest in his past.
He has honestly never had a negative experience.

I'm not undermining your experience sorry if it came across that way. Dbro is a builder he works with lots of NI tradesmen.
I apologise on behalf of the dim wits you experienced.

[quote Roodicus21]@EmeraldShamrock perhaps from government but when I actually holiday in the 'south' ime people from the north are met with a lot of contempt, unless I go to a Gaeltacht area and start speaking fluent Irish where I am accepted and welcomed as a fellow Irish person and not a visitor. Yes I know lots of things are potentially better in the republic but it's more about how does education/ pension etc transfer over? I've paid into a uk pension for 20 years, what happens there?

@PhoenixandtheRug I really don't think it is that simple. Why would I sign up for something where I was financially worse off, less job opportunities (I work in a highly regulated area) , where my dc were disadvantaged because they have been taught a different curriculum etc. I would love a united ireland but it's never going to work peacefully unless the benefits outweigh the negatives for 'most ' people. The brexit shitshow has shown how things can be done so badly! This would need to be done very carefully given the additional sectarian challenges. Anyone who lives in a bubble thinking loyalists will just 'have to accept' a united ireland (even with a majority) are a bit away with the fairies. [/quote]
Why would you be financially worse off? The Republic of Ireland is doing better economically than Northern Ireland.

Here are some stats from an economic article online.

"The Republic of Ireland is now one of the world’s richest countries when measured by Gross Domestic Product per capita; at $72.6k it ranks as the fourth richest country in the world, behind Brunei ($76.7k) but ahead of Norway ($70.6k), the United Arab Emirates ($68.2k) and Switzerland ($61.3k).

On this measure, Northern Ireland is far poorer."

I don’t think many people care about strangers full stop. If it doesn’t affect their lives directly, they aren’t overly bothered. Maybe read a news article and recoil in horror but it’s usually forgotten by the next day. It’s just human nature.

I've just watched Stacey dooley investigates the million pound party this evening (its about the DUP). My sister said she watched it in England with her flat mate a few weeks ago and she still can't belive that a party with this views is the biggest...its on iplayer and worth a watch for anyone who doesn't know who or what the dup are...

Not surprising water cannons were only used in the nationalists catholic areas considering the loyalists had 7 nights of violence prior to the cannons being brought out.

No, it's not. Just the same way as it only made the national news once Catholic kids were involved. Not a fucking peep for the whole week of loyalist destruction and violence.

Not surprising at all.

@Roodicus21 @Emeraldshamrock @PhoenixandtheRug

I think that when it comes down to it alot of people might not want to join Ireland when they realise the actual costs - no more NHS being the main one. I read a thread on here a while ago where someone was complaining they couldn’t get a root canal for free and it cost them £382 to get it. In the south a root canal costs almost €1,000. Also each time you go to the doctors it’s €60.

I do think we have a better education system, we have much less student debt for university (although it is creeping up) and we are in Europe -and of course Ireland would be United but those are things that concern those who plan to send their children to university and have time and money. I would think those who are less well off wouldn’t want to leave when push came to shove. They can identify as Irish but get U.K. benefits.

Another massive issue is that the civil service in NI is massively bloated as a way to employ people. It would have to be cut right down and in some cases departments done away with completely as no longer required when the equivalent exists in Ireland already. This would mean a massive shake up in all these stable jobs. It’s a big problem that would need to be dealt with.

For the south taking on the north would be a huge financial burden.

Whenever I’ve discussed this with any friends the general view is regardless of our views or cost to the economy we have an obligation to vote for reunification as if the north wants it they deserve to get it. However from a practical point of view it’s a lot more complex and not straightforward at all.

I mean how would we even dismantle the whole health and education service and re group of to match Ireland’s education and health system, not to mention needing to do the introduction of the euro again - all banking systems updated, dates to transfer all your sterling over by. Huge tasks.

It would definitely require a huge pay out from the U.K. to help and probably EU grant money too.

I imagine it could take 10 or 20 years to implement...I can't imagine either that it would just be northern Irish people loosing jobs, surely all services would be looked at as an island and managed accordingly.

I would worry about the health service, the one thing we got right is the NHS and that it's free st point of care for everyone. Our health workers get paid approx 20,000 less per annum than the roi though so be interesting to see what would happen there

[quote ThisThatTheOther]**@Roodicus21* @Emeraldshamrock* @PhoenixandtheRug

I think that when it comes down to it alot of people might not want to join Ireland when they realise the actual costs - no more NHS being the main one. I read a thread on here a while ago where someone was complaining they couldn’t get a root canal for free and it cost them £382 to get it. In the south a root canal costs almost €1,000. Also each time you go to the doctors it’s €60.

I do think we have a better education system, we have much less student debt for university (although it is creeping up) and we are in Europe -and of course Ireland would be United but those are things that concern those who plan to send their children to university and have time and money. I would think those who are less well off wouldn’t want to leave when push came to shove. They can identify as Irish but get U.K. benefits.

Another massive issue is that the civil service in NI is massively bloated as a way to employ people. It would have to be cut right down and in some cases departments done away with completely as no longer required when the equivalent exists in Ireland already. This would mean a massive shake up in all these stable jobs. It’s a big problem that would need to be dealt with.

For the south taking on the north would be a huge financial burden.

Whenever I’ve discussed this with any friends the general view is regardless of our views or cost to the economy we have an obligation to vote for reunification as if the north wants it they deserve to get it. However from a practical point of view it’s a lot more complex and not straightforward at all.

I mean how would we even dismantle the whole health and education service and re group of to match Ireland’s education and health system, not to mention needing to do the introduction of the euro again - all banking systems updated, dates to transfer all your sterling over by. Huge tasks.

It would definitely require a huge pay out from the U.K. to help and probably EU grant money too.[/quote]
I went to school in both Northern Ireland and the republic. The education was not that different, to me.

Anyone that I have talked to in the Republic, would like a United Ireland, if it ever came about.

I think it would be an easy transition in fairness.

The only issue is that not everyone in Northern Ireland wants it. I think that there will likely be a referendum to vote on it in the future.

I do think it's important to highlight the practical challenges of unification, but it's not totally unprecedented. The unification of West and East Germany was extremely complicated -- a strong capitalist democracy on one side and a communist dictatorship on the other. Huge numbers in both countries were opposed, West Germans didn't want to take on the enormous economic burden and communists didn't want to join a capitalist state. And their fears were not unfounded, Germans still pay a reunification tax today and extremist parties still do well in the east, which still lags way behind the west.

But presented with the historic opportunity to reunify -- how could it be refused? And indeed, it was the best decision in hindsight.

Of course Ireland is a completely different context. Just to say that even with opposition, even with practical headaches, it can still work out.