AIBU - England couldn’t care less about Northern Ireland

[ThisThatTheOther]

Northern Ireland has seen a return to violence , petrol bombs etc every night for a week now. It’s dominated the headlines here in Ireland. People are worried as peace up north is so fragile. Listening to the radio yesterday an old advisor of Tony Blair was on to discuss. The radio host read out the top 8 listed stories on all main English sites and the violence of Northern Ireland didn’t even feature. It’s the top headline again in all major Irish publications this morning but not in English publications.

Whilst I get the historical significance of referring to the troubles as 'the troubles', I think the term diminishes what went on for young people, born since 1998.
It would be more effective to call it what it was - thirty years of civil war.

To all those here who claim that the EU 'requires' or similar a border: what made the border necessary was the UK's decision to leave the customs union. Not any choice the EU made.

Just for clarity.

When DP was a baby his family had to run in the night, a young soldier brought pots pans, blankets, tins of food for them.
His DM left the peace wall area 30 years ago she knew it'd never change.

@Roodicus21 DP swears he got a good look at their guns too I was skeptical.

@DioneTheDiabolist

The problem is that even though people say they want peace, when it comes it to it, they still want and preserve the old divisions.

Fear is what makes them preserve the old traditions. Unionism in NI is based on fear, the fear of what would happen if Catholics got the same rights as them. Which is sad on multiple levels.

Depends how those rights look or what people remember in the past that is so rarely talked about now before the conflict began; I remember being in Derry inside the wall, and noticing the police station, orange lodge, freemasons hall and the criminal court all within 10 metres of one another. You could just walk from each one to the other for convenience.

Yes there are some worried Unionists. I agree fear is big part of this.

@knackeredcat

Thanks *@CantBeAssed and @IsFuzzyBeagMise*. I think now with living in England I'm only really processing just what a nightmare living through the Troubles was. The thought of creeping back to those levels of violence, dead bodies covered in sheets and bits of what were once people blown to bits doesn't bear thinking about.

The word 'sorry' doesn't cover it, @knackeredcat, but I didn't want to read that and not comment. Mind yourself.

To be fair, I think it's a miracle the GFA has lasted as long as it has. It's a bottom of the barrel, barely acceptable to either side, compromise, that is very precarious.

It never has been a solution.

I care very much, I have half Irish ancestry, although I've never visited. I grew up being told it was too dangerous. I think my Dad felt he had escaped and never wanted to go back and that has always stuck with me.

I have spent a lot of time figuring out what the problems are and if there's a solution. There isn't, you can't force people to choose one way or another and there's not enough support for reunification either way.

There's no answer until the people on both sides can agree on a way forward.

How many lives lost for what essentially boils down to religious differences. Don't they all worship the same god? I know that simplifies it, but it's a large part of what still divides people. I'm agnostic it's kind of baffling to me, that kind of faith.

Depends how those rights look
Equal rights to votes, employment, housing and protection under the law was what was sought. Of course the only reasonable response to this request would be "fuck, yeah". That was not the response and the Troubles happened.

We were probably better off that way, we probably didn't connect it in our minds that bombs = death. I think it is very interesting how children react to things.

Except for the children that had no choice about connecting bombs to death.

@DioneTheDiabolist

The unionists made their own rain; they could have taken a totally different approach, but instead they designed a system which discriminated by design against Catholics, they were sectarian, they controlled the justice system, the police, the judiciary, the companies, the estates.... everything.

Then the schools, the resources, the jobs, the housing...

No what was asked was reasonable; instead the unionists collapsed law and order and NI fell into open conflict.

Who said that violence is not due to brexit??

How many lives lost for what essentially boils down to religious differences. Don't they all worship the same god
Reading the thread you will learn it is not about religion that is just a marker for which side of the track you're from.

The unionists made their own rain; they could have taken a totally different approach, but instead they designed a system which discriminated by design against Catholics, they were sectarian, they controlled the justice system, the police, the judiciary, the companies, the estates.... everything.

No, Westminster made it's own rain when it chose to appease the Unionists of NI and tell them they could have power over their Catholic neighbours when partition happened. The Civil Rights movement happened, and yet again they chose to appease Unionists, depicting those who fought for civil rights as terrorists.

@amusedtodeath1

To be fair, I think it's a miracle the GFA has lasted as long as it has. It's a bottom of the barrel, barely acceptable to either side, compromise, that is very precarious.

It never has been a solution.

I care very much, I have half Irish ancestry, although I've never visited. I grew up being told it was too dangerous. I think my Dad felt he had escaped and never wanted to go back and that has always stuck with me.

I have spent a lot of time figuring out what the problems are and if there's a solution. There isn't, you can't force people to choose one way or another and there's not enough support for reunification either way.

There's no answer until the people on both sides can agree on a way forward.

How many lives lost for what essentially boils down to religious differences. Don't they all worship the same god? I know that simplifies it, but it's a large part of what still divides people. I'm agnostic it's kind of baffling to me, that kind of faith.

How can you possibly claim to have any knowledge whatsoever about the situation in NI and then go on to say it boils down to religious differences?! It’s not simplifying it, it’s completely and absolutely missing the point.

@skirk64

YABU, simply because I'm English, in England, and am well aware of the violence that is going on. It's on the BBC news, it's not being hidden away or ignored.

If it's getting less attention than people in NI think it should, maybe it's because we English have realised that people in the devolved nations mostly despise us, we are in a position where if we comment and get involved we are wrong but if we don't that's also wrong, so frankly, why bother?

The border in the Irish Sea or hard border between Ireland and NI were not an inevitable consequence of Brexit, they were a political decision by the EU and Irish and UK governments. Borders are avoidable - the EU insisted upon one. From what I've read though the current protests in NI mainly aren't about this, they are about the fact that police took no action against a mass turnout for an IRA funeral during lockdown, and because the police are targeting loyalist groups carrying out organised crime.

finally someone with the answer to the question everyone in NI has been asking, could you please enlighten us all to how to get around no borders in land or sea? also could have been worse instead of attending a funeral they could of been going for a long drive to test their eye sight and the final point being the main issue with the new sea border is the uvf sorry drug dealers are finding it a lot more difficult to get their products into NI and dont wanna purchase from the south.

Yes, now Catholic = Republican and Protestant = Loyalist. But this started out as a land grab but has created prejudice between the two religious groups. People were persecuted for their religion. It was written policy at one point in N I. It's not solely about religion, in that you are correct, but to ignore the role religion has played is to ignore history. James II (England) / VII (Scotland) was Catholic and was deposed by William of Orange because the British were not willing to return to Catholicism.

@amusedtodeath1

To be fair, I think it's a miracle the GFA has lasted as long as it has. It's a bottom of the barrel, barely acceptable to either side, compromise, that is very precarious.

It never has been a solution.

I care very much, I have half Irish ancestry, although I've never visited. I grew up being told it was too dangerous. I think my Dad felt he had escaped and never wanted to go back and that has always stuck with me.

I have spent a lot of time figuring out what the problems are and if there's a solution. There isn't, you can't force people to choose one way or another and there's not enough support for reunification either way.

There's no answer until the people on both sides can agree on a way forward.

How many lives lost for what essentially boils down to religious differences. Don't they all worship the same god? I know that simplifies it, but it's a large part of what still divides people. I'm agnostic it's kind of baffling to me, that kind of faith.

This is not about religion any more. Do you think the paramilitaries go. Church and say their prayers every night? They are glorified drug dealers who use violence to keep control in their communities. I see it more as a tribal thing. Young males from deprived areas full of testosterone are given a sense of purpose or belonging. You can only achieve this control by creating an enemy and dehumanising them. Go on Facebook, comment section of the Belfast telegraph. Whereas I despise both sides I was having a look at a few loyalist pages of my area of Belfast and the hate and rethoric they use is very scary. Now they are claiming that loyalist protests are being peaceful and the psni are not acting against the republican rioters (they used the water cannon against them!!). As per local news the youths on the catholic side came out to “protect their community” after petrol bombs from the loyalist side where thrown over the gates. They are no saints either, also a deprived area. But the hate and they way they twist things make me want to leave my house and permanent job in the NHS so my children (or I) will have to be exposed to the darkest side of humans so in the open of NI society*. *in most countries people try to hide being a bit racist or resentful, here is like living in Trumpland

@DioneTheDiabolist

The unionists made their own rain; they could have taken a totally different approach, but instead they designed a system which discriminated by design against Catholics, they were sectarian, they controlled the justice system, the police, the judiciary, the companies, the estates.... everything.

No, Westminster made it's own rain when it chose to appease the Unionists of NI and tell them they could have power over their Catholic neighbours when partition happened. The Civil Rights movement happened, and yet again they chose to appease Unionists, depicting those who fought for civil rights as terrorists.

Yes, I agree! Direct rule didn't have to happen, but it did. A Tory policy which is still the deal. The Conservative and Unionist Party.

Sorry @amusedtodeath1 but you are wrong. The fact there is a religious divide does not mean the Troubles “boil down to religious differences”. I did not say that religion should be ignored, I just took issue with your contention that religion is at the heart of it. It isn’t. It’s about national identity; religion is just a signifier. At no point during the Troubles were the paramilitaries arguing about transubstantiation ffs.

Republicanism and loyalism are the extremes - the terrorists and the paramilitaries. You mean unionists and nationalists, as traditionally they are Protestant and Catholic respectively. The vast majority of unionists are not supportive and are condemning the riots by loyalists. The majority of nationalists have not supported and condemned acts of violence from republicans. They're not one and the same.

To be fair, I've always considered it to be little different now to in the 1600s. Same issues, same divides. It just so happens that Protestant usually implies English decent and it's the English interlopers the Catholic (republican) want rid of. Religion is used as a way to identify each other. Back in the 1600s there was a huge amount of prejudice and violence between both religious groups. When Billy invaded Ireland it was an issue and for all people say, it's not about religion, it's intrinsically tied to the reformation in Henry VIII's reign.

NI government is a shower of shit. Dup and SF as bad as each other - cant get bloody rid due to traditional area voting. Teens blinding voting what mum/dad tell them too. People blinded by the troubles sticking to sectarian voting (my own family members included), terrified to vote for something different as the shinners/prods get one over on them.

DUP tried to block abortion even though it's a legal requirement - that just shows their mentality.

The amount of money wasted on duplication of services, badly run health care, scandals like cash for ash (cheers Arlene).

Rest uk dont want NI, Ireland dont want NI - we cost way too much.

I believe a large proportion of people do want to move forward. Lagan college - first integrated school in NI is oversubscribed by 5 kids per place. Other integrated dont have the reputation or money to take on the facilities grammar schools have.

On lighter note - love The Blame Game for some dark NI humour.

Google - Blame Game Flegs.

Sorry for the rant, Loads of typos in my post.
Here is a lovely loyalist bonfire from a few years ago. Loads of posters “Europe/Europeans out” and sectarian insults shouted during that night.
If you live in Belfast you would be surprised at the amount of people who leave Northern Ireland on the week of the 12th of July. Gates have to be closed, hospital hire extra security and thousands of pounds spend in police/fire brigade... local pRamiliataries and youth do a bonfire were they please and police cannot remove it. They scare elderly and “normal” residents and cause damage to houses. Next day all the streets are full of broken bottles and plastic bags. 🤮

The reason the people of Ireland were so badly persecuted in the 1600s when William of Orange invaded Ireland is not because they were Irish, but because they resisted Protestantism. They were Heretics and Billy decided there would be no religious tolerance.

@amusedtodeath1

To be fair, I've always considered it to be little different now to in the 1600s. Same issues, same divides. It just so happens that Protestant usually implies English decent and it's the English interlopers the Catholic (republican) want rid of. Religion is used as a way to identify each other. Back in the 1600s there was a huge amount of prejudice and violence between both religious groups. When Billy invaded Ireland it was an issue and for all people say, it's not about religion, it's intrinsically tied to the reformation in Henry VIII's reign.

Thanks for the patronising history lesson.

As a person living in Northern ireland in 2021, its no longer about religion, its about national identity. More and more people are separating themselves from religion, identify as atheist or agnostic, and yet our differences remain. Yes, obviously religion is a massive part of our history, but its not the crux of the matter anymore, and its certainly not what "it all boils down to."

As previous posters have pointed out to you, religion was a marker.

Tbf I think a lot of Arlene's annoyances over the funeral are a distraction to avoid answering questions or even encouraging an investigation into the Noah Donohue case. Scandalous.