‘If you look white, then you are white’- what is this now?!

[OwlBeThere]

I’ll start this by saying this is a conversation I had on tiktok. Yes,it’s mostly younger people on that app, but there is also some fantastic political discourse and discussion around linguistics which is my field so that’s what I use it for.

I am mixed race. My mother is Asian (Japanese), my dad is Welsh. I have the kind of skin that is very pale until I see the sun then I tan quickly. I don’t ‘look’ very obviously Asian, I suppose. I do have very straight, very dark hair from my mother, and I do have a relatively flat bridge to my nose. In my welsh village where I was raised from age 4 (born in Japan, moved to Denmark when I was 2, then to wales) I was ‘that Chinese kid’ a lot in the 80s, I had my share of casual racism thrown my way. I speak Japanese, welsh and English.
All that backstory is just to explain why I was completely baffled when in a discussion around racism I was told that because my ‘phenotype’ is white and I’m ‘white passing’ then I am white and have no business taking part in a discussion on racism as I’ve ‘probably never experienced it’.
Many people ask me my heritage, so I think it’s pretty clear to most people that I’m mixed in some way because otherwise they wouldn’t ask, right?
Have any other people mixed race people come across this as a thing? This phenotype argument that appears to negate half of my family?!

I’m in North America ... and East Indians (yes an acceptable term)

It really did shock me the first time that I heard some one from the States use that term.

At first I thought he was just some ignorant old guy but it really does seem to be a term that is widely used.

YANBU OP. Racism exists on so many levels. Look at the persecution of the Jews and many of them would be considered white, yet they faced so much racism despite their perceived level of ‘whiteness’.

Also if you look at the gypsy and traveller community, who are one of the most discriminated groups, they are white. They get such such a hard time and sadly if more often overtly, people don’t even try to hide their prejudices against them and that’s probably because they are white. If they weren’t, I suspect people would be so open about their opinions!

wouldnt be so open

I tick the box of mixed race on forms because that's how I identify though I look white to anyone who sees me. I have one Indian grandparent, but as that was my paternal grandfather my name growing up was entirely Indian - no one reading it ever expected me to show up, and you can imagine how in the 1970s/80s it was always questioned. People assumed I was married from my early teens.

Day to day I know I have zero practical understanding of racism however.

No surprise. This generation is hell bent on seeing everything as so extreme. I find it worrying. Where is this going?

@RedMarauder yes I have also worked with a white Jamaican with the proper accent, and went to boarding school and then subsequently met others from Guyana who had a mix of racial heritages, one was blond, but shared the same great accent.

My colleague was clear that he was the outlier in his family. Both parents were visibly black, as were his siblings, and the community he grew up in. He wasn't. Not even the accent. As far I could tell he was not bothered. That was just the way things were.

I was told that because my ‘phenotype’ is white and I’m ‘white passing’ then I am white and have no business taking part in a discussion on racism as I’ve ‘probably never experienced it’.

I'm so tired of all the woke Brigade dictating what is and what isn't.
There are people more articulate that me on this thread and better informed, but in my aging opinion this in itself is a racist statement.

Passing as white doesn't mean you are white. What an idiotic thing to say. You might pass as white, and probably have white privilege due to that. I got the whole 'chinky' thing when I was a kid (half Thai born in 70's) but I have rarely experience racism as an adult. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it and that I don't have any business discussing it!

One of my best friends is black, her daughter is white (yes that was a surprise) and her daughter was, er, shall we say spirited.

Whenever my friend was called into school she had to explain that she was the actual mother, not a step mother. Every time.

Her daughter got a lot of, "that can't be your real mum".

My friend says you would never think she was mixed race until you see her with a group of black people.

There is really no way to identify someone as belonging to a particular race. The South African government tried for decades.

If you read, "When she was white" a true story of a South African woman with white parents who had a nice white life until she got to school where the head and the other parents said she wasn't white.

The rules and the changes are equally horrific and amusing in their child like attempts to put people in boxes.

I think the bottom line is no one can tell you how you feel and no one can tell you your lived experience.

Ah it's kind of a tough one. People who benefit from white privilege but have some non white element to their heritage weigh in in conversations about things they haven't experience and muddy the water.

But I believe you have a right to say what ethnicity you feel you are, what gender, what sexuality. I don't think other people get to tell you who you are.

I think maybe just be sensitive that despite not being white, you haven't experienced racism to the extent that others have.

I don't see why it is offensive asking people about their ethnic background and where they are from. I regularly hear our West African and Arab doctors asking the same thing of each other!

Why do you want/need to know? Your doctors are most likely asking each other because they are trying to identify any shared heritage.

If you are genuinely interested in people's ethnicity, then you would ask everyone, not just those with non-white skin colours.
It becomes offensive when it's almost the first thing you ask when you meet someone as if colour/ethnicity is the most important thing about them (compare also "but where do you "really" come from?)

My dh is not from here. Very visibly foreign. I am white British. I converted to Islam when I was 16 and I wear a headscarf. Have done for 9 years and I don't think anything of it. People assume I'm foreign because of the scarf. Have been called a Pakistan and to go back to my own country. I'm white as bloody snow, blue eyes and blonde hair (not that anyone sees that) and then my kids are all very white blonde and blue eyes. Polar opposite to their father. So he gets asked if they are his. I get asked why am I trying to be foreign when I'm not. So I don't know if its racism but have been felt like I'm a fraud for a while now. Its really unpleasant OP and like you when I talk to people about it they say as I'm actually white it's not racism. Fine. Whatever it is, it's bloody horrible.

@Oblomov21

No surprise. This generation is hell bent on seeing everything as so extreme. I find it worrying. Where is this going?

I agree with you. It has become fashionable to dissect the complexity of human experience and refer to people by observable identify classifiers. It would have been socially unacceptable a few years ago to debate another person's skin colour and cultural identity publicly yet here we are sorting people into neat little boxes. Some boxes are more acceptable than others and the tone of this discourse is wholly judgmental and intolerant.

As others have said, heritage and ethnicity isnt just about opression.
Rightly there has been a lot of discussion recently about racism, colouism, other forms of discrimination. Of course this should be talked about, but it is creating an idea that the main thing about being (e.g.) Jewish, or Indian, or Jamaican, or African-American, or dual heritage is that you are Opressed. And therefore how much you are allowed to identify with those cultures is determined by how much opression you have received/can expect to eceive. Which is understandable (particularly for African Americans) but not very healthy when its taken too far (I am not talking about when people are discussing racism itself when of course its central)

And incidentally I think the most harmful part of this is when its people outside those groups (allies) on social media who get that idea. People should be allowed to talk about racism. They should also be allowed to love their grandmothers cooking, and be proud of their family sayings or customs without being told "thats not for you because you dont experience racism"

I'm mixed too and there is an element of truth in being 'white-passing' and the benefits it can bring. Tbh I think people who look like they could be from anywhere are quite lucky in that regard.

I don't agree that passing negates half of your family - other people's perceptions are just that - their perceptions and not your reality. All in all it's quite an interesting and nuanced topic but I know that my grandmother was quite relieved that my father and his brothers were white passing as they managed to avoid a lot of the racism and prejudice that other more black looking relatives experienced.

[quote OwlBeThere]@Happycat1212 that’s really really sad and disheartening. I can’t say I’ve had any issues in Japan, though they laugh at my terrible accent but I accept that I sound weird in whatever language I speak 😂, I was the only Asian kid in my school so never had the experience of other Asian people being shitty to me.
So, is an Albino Asian or Albino black person who is 100% of that race also just white now??[/quote]
I once taught non identical twins back in the 90s. Dad was Black Trinidadian and mum was White Irish. One twin was identical to his father and the other to his mother, very white skin and red hair. Born in England, living in Moss Side, which in the 80s was a volatile place to live and people suffered a great deal from racism.
Although they were both mixed race, only the twin who looked like his father had overt racism directed at him. The racism directed towards the other twin was less obvious and more along the lines of questioning whether his brother and father were really his relation, and that his mum must have slept with a white man whilst she was pregnant!
They described themselves differently - one said he was black, the other that he was white. They based their sense of self on their skin colour in the first instance. The boys were very close, but they experienced life very differently purely because of their skin colour.

@Deathraystare

I don't see why it is offensive asking people about their ethnic background and where they are from. I regularly hear our West African and Arab doctors asking the same thing of each other!

I remember when I went to Poland and our guide was cetainly striking. She had an olive looking skin and a bright red afro! To me though she looked like she came from Cyprus. She reminded me of a turkish-Cyprian school friend. However she was Polish-Trinidadian!

It is incredibly rude to ask people where they're from based on what they look or sound like. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment, would you like to be judged and questioned when you're going about your daily life by someone who thinks you look 'striking'? I'm sure you mean well but it really isn't a nice thing to do.

@likeamillpond, I’m of Spanish descent. I have been called Paki on and off most of my life, as has 24 year old dd. We have been spat at, shouted it. I lost a Saturday job back in the seventies due to having more of a tan than usual. So yes, Europeans experience it too.
Oh and I still get the ‘ where are you really from’ , on telling people I’m a Londoner.

@UserTwice

I don't see why it is offensive asking people about their ethnic background and where they are from. I regularly hear our West African and Arab doctors asking the same thing of each other!

Why do you want/need to know? Your doctors are most likely asking each other because they are trying to identify any shared heritage.

If you are genuinely interested in people's ethnicity, then you would ask everyone, not just those with non-white skin colours.
It becomes offensive when it's almost the first thing you ask when you meet someone as if colour/ethnicity is the most important thing about them (compare also "but where do you "really" come from?)

Agree. Not the same but... I have a Jewish surname. I had a work colleague come up to be excitedly asking if I was Jewish too. She wasnt trying to forment any kind of scary alliance/disciminate against others. She was just interested to see if we had any common ground (and didnt care that it was the paternal line because thats a whole other discussion about identity). If someone I was meeting for the first time agressively asked if my surname was Jewish I would have some trepidation... However, a Polish person (I already knew) asking "is that Polish-Jewish" is fine because again, it is clear they were trying to find additional common ground.

Dh and I both look completely white. We have hispanic and arab heritage (mostly). We have experienced racism in just about every country we have lived in, either because of our skin colour (in Japan), because of our names or our accents.

Our dc tick the ‘mixed other’ box in ethnicity surveys, because that’s what they are. The fact they look white is irrelevant to that, though I recognise in some places it is an advantage.

[quote Gilead]@likeamillpond, I’m of Spanish descent. I have been called Paki on and off most of my life, as has 24 year old dd. We have been spat at, shouted it. I lost a Saturday job back in the seventies due to having more of a tan than usual. So yes, Europeans experience it too.
Oh and I still get the ‘ where are you really from’ , on telling people I’m a Londoner.[/quote]
Its a bit like the Borgia family beinf (arguably) victims of anti-semitic propagand (although they victimised a few people themselves). They were not Jewish - far from it, and probably very anti-semitic themselves. But they came from Spain and SPanish immigrant to Italy were associated with Jewish refugees so it was possible to smear them.
Victimisation and racism are very very complicated.
Culture and family and heritage and ethnicity are complicated too - but they shouldnt be inextricably linked to victimisation and racism.

OP, have you heard the term "white adjacent"? It's used by some progressives to minimise racism against Asian people and explains some of what you've encountered.

I’m mixed race (black Caribbean and white British) and look obviously mixed. - skin tone, hair type. I’ve never been called white but have been called black on numerous occasions which is both inaccurate and dismissive. Just to be clear, this is not about not being wanting to be seen as black (or white for that matter) because I see it as a negative, but because it’s just not true and doesn’t reflect my identity.

I have mixed race friends who are (unintentionally) white passing and while they can understand the assumption that they are white based on their appearance, they’re frustrated when their non-white identity is completely dismissed after correcting someone. However, they are also aware of the privileges of being white passing and that regardless of their genetics, their appearance does mean they experience the world in a different way. It doesn’t mean that they - or someone who is actually white - have no place in conversations about racism. Just that we should all be aware that our own experiences and how we’re perceived (rightly or wrongly) by others is relevant to the discussion.

While I’m clearly a ‘person of colour’, (don’t love that term but for want of a better one) and may share experiences or prejudice that a black person might face, it’s not the same. I’m not diminishing my own experience but know full well that to some people, my lighter skin allows me to be an ‘acceptable face of blackness’. It’s just so wrong. Colourism should be discussed more in conversations about racism.

(As a bit of an aside, I do think language and the crossover of nationality, race and ethnicity can be frustrating and causes people to make lots of assumptions. I’m British and the number of times I’ve been asked ‘where I’m really from’ - often while gesturing at my face - is maddening. Genuine curiosity? I personally don’t mind and happy to share but suggesting that I’m pretending to be British, not so much!)

That’s truly awful. You absolutely have every right to take part in discussions around racism when you’ve experienced it yourself, especially as Asian people in this day and age are getting an even shorter stick than black people with others refusing to listen or care.

I sometimes wonder what people would be like if none of us could see and had to treat people on how we find them and how they act, regardless of age, sex, skin colour.