‘If you look white, then you are white’- what is this now?!

[OwlBeThere]

I’ll start this by saying this is a conversation I had on tiktok. Yes,it’s mostly younger people on that app, but there is also some fantastic political discourse and discussion around linguistics which is my field so that’s what I use it for.

I am mixed race. My mother is Asian (Japanese), my dad is Welsh. I have the kind of skin that is very pale until I see the sun then I tan quickly. I don’t ‘look’ very obviously Asian, I suppose. I do have very straight, very dark hair from my mother, and I do have a relatively flat bridge to my nose. In my welsh village where I was raised from age 4 (born in Japan, moved to Denmark when I was 2, then to wales) I was ‘that Chinese kid’ a lot in the 80s, I had my share of casual racism thrown my way. I speak Japanese, welsh and English.
All that backstory is just to explain why I was completely baffled when in a discussion around racism I was told that because my ‘phenotype’ is white and I’m ‘white passing’ then I am white and have no business taking part in a discussion on racism as I’ve ‘probably never experienced it’.
Many people ask me my heritage, so I think it’s pretty clear to most people that I’m mixed in some way because otherwise they wouldn’t ask, right?
Have any other people mixed race people come across this as a thing? This phenotype argument that appears to negate half of my family?!

Thinking that white is white is taking colour extremely literally but I this context what colour you are and what shade your skin is are two different things.

Whe someone asks what colour you are they’re not about to match your perfect shade of foundation. Whether they are conscious of this or not, they are asking about your background, your heritage, your culture.

I’d say it’s the distinction between race and racism. Race depends on what you are but racism depends on how others see you.

But technically race should be ethnicity as race is a misnomer.

@Deathraystare simple explanation is that it is othering.

Longer explanation is there are social cues that many white people miss when doing it.

Due to the fact Europeans went around colonising other countries there has ended up being lots of people with British, French, Belgian etc citizenship who weren't white. Their descendants often have very little or no experience of the countries their ancestors were born in.

Easy way to do it is to ask who people are named after or what does their name mean.

David Baddiel has a book out called 'Jews Don't Count' which is a good read on this subject. He talks about Jewish people being 'Schrodingers whites' ie. Not white enough in some situations, too white in others, sounds like it applies to your experience, OP.
I understand this is a completely different situation to the OP, and I'm not trying to undermine the racism you've experienced, I just wanted to add something. I'm (very) white and I did a DNA test a while back which said I was part African. It got me thinking about how we classify race and how unhelpful it is to have the simplified view that through various means is often socially enforced. I wouldn't consider myself mixed race as I've experienced life as a white person, and it would feel like I'm claiming victimhood - I feel like I shouldn't mention it at all tbh! Technically though, if this test is to believed, I have mixed heritage. I think it's important that BME people have a way in which to identify the issues and disadvantages that affect them, but that is a social issue regarding skin colour and cultural practices, rather than a direct result of DNA. I wonder how useful it is to obscure the reality that many white people like me have mixed heritage? Wouldn't it reduce racism if there was more awareness how mixed we all are, or am I being naive?

I wonder if it also makes a difference which way round you list your race?
I’m 3/4 white with an Indian gran. I look fairly Asian to be honest whilst my brother not so much. We grew up on farms and there are no ethnic minorities farming in Britain. It was considered quite a positive thing though - without sounding like a Nazi, farmers are familiar with the benefits of mixing bloodlines.
The point is farming is probably as British as it gets in terms of culture and tradition. Yet over the years people have always assumed things based on my looks. I get asked if I’m vegetarian a lot, asked about speaking Indian or visiting India. I still get asked where I was born. My brother doesn’t. I don’t think anyone has ever asked him “where do you come from”.
I think it’s very hard if culturally you are one thing but no one sees past your features.

Strangely, I think it's the result of the divisiveness of political expression at the moment.

If we could be whatever we are, discuss whatever we are, look however we do without insult taken or given much of this would just stop being an issue.

By being defensive about who is allowed to speak and whose voices count, we're creating a culture where mutual understanding is ever harder to reach. When only some voices are acceptable, individuals have to be judged and assessed and questioners can't learn. Everything has to be open to challenge, or nothing. Who decides?

I've long thought that defining ethnicity is going to become increasingly ridiculous as more and more people are mixed race with varying degrees of skin colour and cultural reference.

My own DC are mixed race White/Asian, but both look white, although when tanned (which they do very easily) you might think DD was Mediterranean just on looks. However, they are basically treated as they are white- they don't have any of the struggles that people with non-white skin colours do. Other than Asian relatives who they see infrequently, they have no real mental connection to the "Asian" side of their ethnicity. In terms of background and upbringing they are basically "British" but that's isn't a thing you can pick on forms, you have to also consider your skin colour. Culturally I think they are mostly treated as white - the only times they aren't are when they are with me, when people obviously see my skin colour and realise that my children are only "masquerading" as white. It's usually "interesting" to see people's faces/behaviour change! When they are asked their ethnicity they used to say "mixed race" and be sometimes met with incredulity. Now they both tend to say "white" as they are fed up of the discussion unless in certain circumstances where it feels like it matters to be accurate.

but what box should they tick on forms? I dunno really.

I agree with @Pinchoftums.

The colour of your skin will have an impact on people treat you because they ASSUME certains ‘qualities’ associated with that skin colour.
Same with accents (whether it’s welsh, Irish or standard foreigner).

I think it’s completely different from your HERITAGE. Heritage is the culture you are been brought up in. It will always be a mix of the country you are living in and what your your family is bringing (Eg Japanese, french etc...).

The problem here is can you directly link the level of racism people receive to the shade of your skin?
Add to that the issue of cultural appropriation and you have a chaos where mix raced people just never quite fit in because they are always going against the ‘rules’.
Eg too dark skin so you must be trying to pass as black even though it’s your normal skin colour in the sun.
Too white to be considered black so you can’t experience racism.
And I suspect too there is a too white to be black so that side of your culture can thankfully be ignored :(

@OwlBeThere

I’ll start this by saying this is a conversation I had on tiktok. Yes,it’s mostly younger people on that app, but there is also some fantastic political discourse and discussion around linguistics which is my field so that’s what I use it for.

I am mixed race. My mother is Asian (Japanese), my dad is Welsh. I have the kind of skin that is very pale until I see the sun then I tan quickly. I don’t ‘look’ very obviously Asian, I suppose. I do have very straight, very dark hair from my mother, and I do have a relatively flat bridge to my nose. In my welsh village where I was raised from age 4 (born in Japan, moved to Denmark when I was 2, then to wales) I was ‘that Chinese kid’ a lot in the 80s, I had my share of casual racism thrown my way. I speak Japanese, welsh and English.
All that backstory is just to explain why I was completely baffled when in a discussion around racism I was told that because my ‘phenotype’ is white and I’m ‘white passing’ then I am white and have no business taking part in a discussion on racism as I’ve ‘probably never experienced it’.
Many people ask me my heritage, so I think it’s pretty clear to most people that I’m mixed in some way because otherwise they wouldn’t ask, right?
Have any other people mixed race people come across this as a thing? This phenotype argument that appears to negate half of my family?!

It depends who is telling you this. If it’s non-white passing BAME people then you should be tactful around them because you probably do benefit from being half-white, in a way they don’t. I always find it frustrating as an Indian who looks obvs foreign when my light skinned, blue eyed, blonde haired Indian cousins try to hijack discussions about discrimination and racism. In many Asian cultures, Indian ones especially, being light skinned is such a bonus that mixed race people don’t suffer from colourism or racism back home either.

My children are mixed North African. Only one looks genuinely mixed race. The others could pass in both cultures. No racism so far. There was some laughing about the surname though. I asked my eldest if he felt mixed race and he said he just felt like a normal person which made me laugh. I think sometimes we make a bigger issue about it then it needs to be. Im more worried that my son looks like he will be quite short. I think that will be a harder physical attribute to live with then mixed ethnicity. I think however racism is so much worse for those who look completely different to the general population. As for every else to a certain extent everyone has a mix somewhere.

Some people are unbelievably thick.

I don't know where these stupid opinions come from, but I've given up trying to explain racism to white people. Complete waste of time. They just don't get it. I've decided it's like trying to explain the colour blue to a blind person.

I'm mixed-race too, often assumed to be white.

It's always been this way and is one of the perils of being of mixed heritage - you are not seen as either.

I read a lot of books about American slavery, it's noticeable that in slaves' accounts they always seem to make the villain a "mXXXXXX" or a "qXXXXXXX" (I've censored the words because they are offensive now, they mean a person who is half-black or quarter-black) - you know, the slave who always screws over the other slaves and gets them flogged.

I see a backlash online against mixed race people from some American black women who feel that mixed race (black and white) women are taking acting roles that they feel should go to black actresses. There is also a perception that mixed race people are taking over racism discussions and that's viewed as a problem because we don't experience racism in the same way as monoracial people; also because some mixed race people benefit from the privilege of being white-passing. So on social media at the moment there's a tendency for black women to suppress mixed race voices. It seems to be driven by the American perception of racism against black people which is very different to the experiences of people in other countries and to other minority groups.

So it's not surprising that the OP came across this attitude on TikTok where there will be a strong US influence. I've ended up leaving Facebook groups about race and only joining mixed race groups because it's so hard to see mixed race people constantly being shut down in discussions, especially, as the OP describes, because in one single photo on your social media account it's not obvious that you're mixed race.

I think it’s a bit of an over correction from the ‘1 drop rule’ in America. I fully agree that colourism and light skin privilege do exist. But it doesn’t really make much sense to apply that to you as many Japanese people have pale skin, you are more able to tell if someone is Japanese by their facial features imo.

It’s very difficult and confusing especially when people start talking about white hispanic people vs. mixed Hispanic people etc. It’s not as clear cut as all of that. I don’t think you can ignore all cultural differences and just go by skin colour no matter how well meaning your intentions.

The colour of our skin is one factor among many in terms of identity. Our sense of self is shaped by a myriad of factors, our genes, culture, familial relationships and history, our education, and health, social status (!!!) and many more.

I find the fact that something so complex, diverse and personal is being broken down into a crude taxonomy of identity labels concerning. It is potentially useful for addressing systemic bigotry but it's also dehumanising.

I suppose this kind of detailed labelling of persona is useful for profiling people and fits in neatly with our database obsessed digital way of life.

I worked in an open plan office where departments normally sat together but people from other offices would simply find a spare seat. A nice, relatively senior guy regularly sat in our section if he was attending a meeting. I assumed he was white because he looked white until one day he came in several shades darker after being on holiday. I asked, because I am nosey, if he had a Mediterranean background. No, both parents were Windrush generation, and he grew up in a traditionally black area in London. He was much fairer than his siblings. We talked a little about his childhood.

My assumption that he was white was understandable. I liked him more now I knew him a little better, which is normal. He had never mentioned race and made no attempt to either emphasise he was Caribbean nor deny it.

I was still left a little disconcerted, though it was not clear why. Would it have made any difference to me if he had been more obviously black? Probably not. This was Central London, our CEO was black and if anything more black senior staff wee a good thing. Should I have noticed. Not obviously. And when race did come up it was clear that I was not unusual in assuming he was white, and did not seem offended, even though it was clear he embraced his Caribbean heritage. Perhaps my lingering concern was that he might have not done as well in our society if he had not been white passing. My preference though was that culture and heritage matter and it is for the individual to be proud of their roots, regardless of their outward appearance.

I understand.
My mother was born in India, and is Anglo Indian. Half my family look and sound Indian.

I refer to myself as mixed heritage on forms, but look white (or Welsh/Irish/Italian I've been told). I have pale skin, but tan and get freckles, with very dark hair and eyes.
My brother, uncle, mother and cousins look Indian. My children are like DH in colouring, blonde/brown hair and white skin.

I have to say I'm curious about people's heritage if they 'look' mixed, but that stems from being mixed myself. I don't ask, but would love to!

YANBU.
I had a friend who was mixed race in school. She was very white looking and passing ... until she was with her black parent. She got comments about how "lucky" she was to be so light skinned from her black parents side of the family.

It's still racism.

My own DC are mixed race White/Asian, but both look white, although when tanned (which they do very easily) you might think DD was Mediterranean just on looks. However, they are basically treated as they are white- they don't have any of the struggles that people with non-white skin colours do. Other than Asian relatives who they see infrequently, they have no real mental connection to the "Asian" side of their ethnicity

I think this will be DS1 as he gets older, he's Italian/Filipino but looks olive skinned Italian. We live 10mins away from the Italian side of the family and I'm trying to bring them up bilingual. We haven't seen PILs since last year due to lockdown.

DS2 has much more Asian features, so I wonder if he'll feel more connected to the Asian side of his heritage when he is older.

Luckily DS1 goes (and DS2 will go) to a Catholic primary school with lots of other Filipino or half Filipino DC so I'm not worried about racism, at least while they are little.

DS2 is a toddler but DS1 just says he is English because he was born in England - makes perfect sense to me!

I think the problem with the BAME construct is that obviously lots of people face discrimination for issues other than the colour of the skin. Otherwise there would be no discrimination for Eastern Europeans for instance. But, there's a general perception that people with darker skin face more discrimination, which is likely to be true (like pp said, that's colourism). It's completely wrong for people with fair skin to be denied their ethnic heritage. Black/white aren't really ethnicities. They are just a very vague and inexact marker for your ethnicity. Perfectly possible for a European from South Italy/Greece to have darker skin than a Indian/African. Chinese/Japanese often have paler/whiter skin that those who are deemed "whites". There's a range of colours which occur naturally amongst ethnic Africans and Asians and Europeans. Just because you are a black or an Asian with pale brown skin, it does not necessarily mean that you are mixed or have some sort of European ancestry, as people assume, There's a broad range of skin tones in Africa/Asia and Europe anyway.

Hmmmm,

How you look does have a lot to do with it though. I am black, Think I might be mixed race looking as people have asked me before whether I am - and actually when I've been treated as 'mixed' it has always been to my advantage. I have cousins who look white. They have experienced the UK, England, school, friends, life differently to me though they are as Caribbean, cook the food, can converse in Patois etc, share the same grandma.... It is simply a fact they do not deny, when I walk into some pubs and they walk in we are received differently, and that is just the most trivial of examples.

When you have a proximity to 'white' life is different for you, and in many cases the racism you might experience personally is attenuated.

It is just odd for someone to tell you that you are not what you are. It's offensive and ignorant. But for them to raise that the racism you experience, in type and likely quantity is vastly different to that of someone who is unequivocally an ethnic minority in the UK is not, because in my experience it will have been.

@Needmoresleep some people from the Caribbean are white. I've worked with 2 with accents. Very funny to watch people's faces when they realise it isn't a black person speaking.

Likewise it is very funny to watch people's faces when a person with a thick French accent who isn't white speaks.

@StuntNun

I see a backlash online against mixed race people from some American black women who feel that mixed race (black and white) women are taking acting roles that they feel should go to black actresses. There is also a perception that mixed race people are taking over racism discussions and that's viewed as a problem because we don't experience racism in the same way as monoracial people; also because some mixed race people benefit from the privilege of being white-passing. So on social media at the moment there's a tendency for black women to suppress mixed race voices. It seems to be driven by the American perception of racism against black people which is very different to the experiences of people in other countries and to other minority groups.

So it's not surprising that the OP came across this attitude on TikTok where there will be a strong US influence. I've ended up leaving Facebook groups about race and only joining mixed race groups because it's so hard to see mixed race people constantly being shut down in discussions, especially, as the OP describes, because in one single photo on your social media account it's not obvious that you're mixed race.

I also thought that backlash is hugely unfair though. It is quite justified to call attention to, and criticise, colourism in society and point out that often in the entertainment industry mixed race/light skinned people are favoured particularly when they ae trying to be "diverse" (e.g. look, we have a black male lead but hes sensitive and kind and light-skinned) It is really really unfair to attack individuals within the entertainment industry for inadvertently benefitting from that. Its citicising the wrong person. Like women blaming an individual woman for doing well in her career because she is "pretty" rather than the sleazy bosses who pay attention to that and only want to promote one woman to management level anyway. But so long as everyone keeps infighting real change doesnt happen so yay.

Perhaps my lingering concern was that he might have not done as well in our society if he had not been white passing.

He may have had less systemic prejudice to deal with (may) than someone more obviously black but almost certainly this man's identity will have been negatively impacted by the lighter shade of his skin as he would have stood out within his family and Caribbean context as 'other', which is is such a painful and traumatising experience for many ethically mixed people.

The expression 'passing as white' makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable. It's rooted in slavery referring to the offspring of black mothers who had mixed race children who could 'pass for white' and escape slavery (and lose their community in the process).

Agree if you look "white", or "whiter", it's generally always to your benefit,. But that's doesn't mean that those people with fair skin should be denied their ethnic heritage...they just may not have experienced racism in the same way.