To insist my staff have childcare in place?

[willandgrace]

Several of the staff I manage have young kids, we've supported them all year to WFH with kids at home. We are still primarily working from home but as schools/childcare are now open I have said that people need to have appropriate childcare in place while working from home, the same as they would have if they were office based (as they all were previously) - some of the staff are not happy about this but AIBU?

[quote trixies]@Wateruniform I’ve been talking specifically about my company - where parents were adding 8-9 hours of childcare onto a working day that could be cut in half (3.5 hours) with no pay consequences. No parent was working the hours you mention - specifically because the company allowed them to reduce their working hours by half. That was accommodated by the non-parents taking on the additional hours.

I’ve never said that we’re any more hard done by than anyone else, and I’ve done those additional hours unpaid for nearly a year. My point is just that my patience is wearing thin - I feel for parents, I really do, but workers without kids aren’t there just to be relied on indefinitely. Employers like mine do seem to see it that way though.[/quote]
Exactly.

The problem is for a lot of employees the good will of those working extra is starting to run out. There's been a kick off in my workplace today- someone was helping out and it's now being seen as their job. It's a direct consequence of covering for others with childcare issues.

As I said upthread, we've pulled together and decided we aren't covering it anymore. My normal working hours are 8am-4pm with a 30 minute lunch break. I've been doing 6.30am-9pm some days to make sure everything gets done. From Monday I am not doing it anymore. The people I work with are not doing it anymore. People will have to do their own jobs again. That's before the realisation of leave priority for the ones who have worked their balls off kicks in.

I know exactly how Monday is going to go.. I can't, I've got Barry here! Well, unfortunately you've got to.

You are definitely not being unreasonable. There is no way someone can do a demanding job well and look after a child well. I distinctly remember reading an article where a parent had tried to do both, a child let themselves out of the house and drowned in a swimming pool. Rare, but avoidable if childcare was considered.

Given the job you hint at, there is an equal risk to a distressed client. There is no way a duty of care can be fulfilled for a child and a client.

Yes, it is harder to find childcare at the moment and it will affect some people's decisions with regards to employment, but it is not discrimination, it's an unfortunate impact of covid - I made the decision not to return to work on this basis, as my husband is the higher earner at the moment (for once ) If he was the lower earner, he would be taking time out. We have both had professional careers over many years before having children

@Jammysod

Like a lot of people have said, childcare isn't as widely available as before. Social bubbles & restricted numbers are limiting spaces.

If a staff member can get a place, but is refusing due to the cost alone then YANBU (unless they've lost income due to furlough/job loss).

If they genuinely cannot get a childcare place, I'm not sure what they're expected to do. It's not their fault.

Absolutely this. I’m in London and wrap around and holiday care in my area, other than provided by the school for key worker children, simply isn’t available at moment. Lord only knows what it will cost when it is available as it will have to smaller groups, that are bubbled, with extra space and ventilation requirements etc.

Many people with school aged children can and do wfh while they entertain themselves, here is a big difference between a 5 year old and a 9 year old in how self-sufficient they are, never mind a 15 year old!

If you have employees that cannot wfh with their children, cannot work around them or when they are asleep, that needs to be discussed with those individuals. The blanket approach described sounds dreadful.

For those saying companies can easily find new staff if employees choose to leave over such measures, all I can say you are clearly not working in my industry! There are not enough experienced people and it is difficult every time we expand, as finding good candidates is really hard and expensive!

Hunter feel free to update thread on how it goes. Interesting to see what happens when people say no.

I wouldn’t feel comfortable putting my daughter (16 months) in to child care yet. She would have to have close contact with her care givers and she has little to no immune system. My son is in a high risk category and is too young to be vaccinated so we have to limit our exposure. She has also had very little contact with other adults because of the pandemic so it will be very small baby steps. Some people are unable to rely on family members (where they may have been previously) yet because they are still shielding/vulnerable. I think you need to be mindful that we all have very different needs during this pandemic and things may be complicated for some.

The guidance allows for wraparound childcare in childminders and in after school clubs and nurseries are open so there is no reason why people can't have childcare in place? I'm confused. Maybe it's local availability? Could you check with individuals what their personal situation is?

It's not like the first lockdown where nothing was open though, thankfully. Tests are easily available too.

It's the responsibility of both parents, not just the women but I know where it mostly falls.

As @LouH1981 says, people are in so many different circumstances, I think the suggestion is terrible, you’d be lucky to escape without a tribunal claim for indirect discrimination and with any of your staff left.

Early years has been open continuously since July last year. There has also NEVER been a limit on the number of settings you can use, there was a recommendation to keep it low. And you can only have 1 childcare bubble, grandparents for example. You absolutely can use grandparents and a childminder, and a nursery. I work in early years. A lot of parents on here are extremely misinformed.
There is absolutely no need for any child under school age to be at home or to have been at home since 1st july last year.
And schools are open. So same goes for school age children. Staff can at least be child free for school hours without any issue at all.
If a child is sent home to self isolate obviously things change in that scenario.

@saffy2

Early years has been open continuously since July last year. There has also NEVER been a limit on the number of settings you can use, there was a recommendation to keep it low. And you can only have 1 childcare bubble, grandparents for example. You absolutely can use grandparents and a childminder, and a nursery. I work in early years. A lot of parents on here are extremely misinformed. There is absolutely no need for any child under school age to be at home or to have been at home since 1st july last year. And schools are open. So same goes for school age children. Staff can at least be child free for school hours without any issue at all. If a child is sent home to self isolate obviously things change in that scenario.

That isn’t the case UK wide.

Also, many providers have put rules in place. Either keyworker only kids or one setting etc.

Your experience is not universal, as the thread shows.

You are not being unreasonable EXCEPT for during school holidays. With us, holiday clubs etc are still not open and so childcare in holidays is impossible....

Are they still delivering their expected workload? If so, what is the problem? If not, then I think you need to be more flexible as childcare isn’t as available at the moment as it was pre-pandemic. I also doubt that anyone would choose to have their kids at home whilst working - it’s hard! - so I’m sure they have no alternative

Early years has been open continuously since July last year.

Call them back to the office, then they'll have to sort childcare. If they can't afford childcare for a genuine reason, partner laid off etc, then an arrangement can be made on a case by case basis

@saffy2

Early years has been open continuously since July last year. There has also NEVER been a limit on the number of settings you can use, there was a recommendation to keep it low. And you can only have 1 childcare bubble, grandparents for example. You absolutely can use grandparents and a childminder, and a nursery. I work in early years. A lot of parents on here are extremely misinformed. There is absolutely no need for any child under school age to be at home or to have been at home since 1st july last year. And schools are open. So same goes for school age children. Staff can at least be child free for school hours without any issue at all. If a child is sent home to self isolate obviously things change in that scenario.

In England, early years have not been closed by the government since June but that is not the same as saying they are open. Many closed for financial reasons or because too many staff were shielding etc. Saying all have been open is an incorrect sweeping statement.

I would say put yourself in their place and imagine you had young kids. How would you feel about your policy?

@willandgrace

Several of the staff I manage have young kids, we've supported them all year to WFH with kids at home. We are still primarily working from home but as schools/childcare are now open I have said that people need to have appropriate childcare in place while working from home, the same as they would have if they were office based (as they all were previously) - some of the staff are not happy about this but AIBU?

Are you going to offer to pay for official childcare, providing there is any?

Are you aware of parental discrimination?

Are you aware of parents being put into stressful conditions because employers appear to have been living under a rock for the past year?

Are you aware that life is not the same as 8tbwas before?

Do you know if their partners shifts have changed because of Covid? (My husband went to 12hr shifts and has stayed that way. We have no other family, we cannot afford paid childcare - I work for the DWP, I know what we are entitled to which is 0.)

Would you pay between 700-1K+ a month for childcare if it were your own children and you're working/middle class?

It's almost a crime to have children these days. Pretty sure some employers just have allergies to feelings regarding children and being cold hearted.

How about this - Offer them school hours, let them drop off and pick up their kids, set up a creche or nursery at work...no, I doubt any employer would do this because low and behold they be the flexible ones!

I'm honestly sick and tired of the argument of children vs work. Are you asking staff to choose their children over work? Are you putting them in that position? Are you making life even worse for these people now that life as we know it has changed?

I think you need a good, long hard look in the mirror and decide how you want your staff to see you - The manager who makes the staff, or the cold hearted who makes life a misery.

@MarshaBradyo

Hunter feel free to update thread on how it goes. Interesting to see what happens when people say no.

Will do. But to be honest, there's no other real option than for people to do their jobs. There's been tears today because it's all become too much for those covering the extra. The hardest thing is going to be them sticking to their boundaries. They will just end up going off sick soon otherwise.

There is a huge difference between wfh and homeschooling, and wfh while kids play or watch tv though.

Why on earth should an employer pay for childcare? You choose to have children, you pay for childcare.

Employers made allowances last year during the first lockdown. It was unprecedented. And for those with children who are self isolating there is the option to furlough or flexi furlough for that period. But employers can’t continue to take the loss in productivity. Those working from home are lucky to still be able to. I’ve been back in the office since last September. But my husband has had periods of working from home and couldn’t do it and look after his mother at the same time. Anyone with primary aged children need to put childcare in place.

@Comefromaway

Why on earth should an employer pay for childcare? You choose to have children, you pay for childcare.

Employers made allowances last year during the first lockdown. It was unprecedented. And for those with children who are self isolating there is the option to furlough or flexi furlough for that period. But employers can’t continue to take the loss in productivity. Those working from home are lucky to still be able to. I’ve been back in the office since last September. But my husband has had periods of working from home and couldn’t do it and look after his mother at the same time. Anyone with primary aged children need to put childcare in place.

Employers don’t pay for childcare. At best, in the last year, they have paid their employees to simultaneously work from home and look after their children.

Would you pay between 700-1K+ a month for childcare if it were your own children and you're working/middle class?

That's what most people do if they work once they've had children .... that's normal!! It's what we did .

I do think employers need to continue to be understanding as childcare options are limited in some areas but wfh and not using childcare just because you want to save money is taking the piss.

@ChelleMum85

Are you going to offer to pay for official childcare, providing there is any?

No, parents need to pay for their own childcare.

Are you aware of parental discrimination?

Being a parent is not a protected characteristic.

Are you aware of parents being put into stressful conditions because employers appear to have been living under a rock for the past year?

Are you aware that the childfree are being expected to cover the work that someone else is being paid to do?

Are you aware that life is not the same as 8tbwas before?

Doesn't warrant a response.

Do you know if their partners shifts have changed because of Covid? (My husband went to 12hr shifts and has stayed that way. We have no other family, we cannot afford paid childcare - I work for the DWP, I know what we are entitled to which is 0.)

If you can't afford paid childcare for the hours you are paid to do then you cannot afford to work in this current role.

Would you pay between 700-1K+ a month for childcare if it were your own children and you're working/middle class?

Yes. Many people do.

It's almost a crime to have children these days. Pretty sure some employers just have allergies to feelings regarding children and being cold hearted.

No. Being expected to work the hours you are paid to work is not unreasonable.

How about this - Offer them school hours, let them drop off and pick up their kids, set up a creche or nursery at work...no, I doubt any employer would do this because low and behold they be the flexible ones!

You can't easily give this flexibility to all staff. Extra flexibility for one person creates a knock on effect.

I'm honestly sick and tired of the argument of children vs work. Are you asking staff to choose their children over work? Are you putting them in that position? Are you making life even worse for these people now that life as we know it has changed?

Life has changed for everyone. Its no unique to parents in the workplace. No one is expecting people to put their work above their children. They are expecting people to be available for the hours they are paid to work.

I think you need a good, long hard look in the mirror and decide how you want your staff to see you - The manager who makes the staff, or the cold hearted who makes life a misery.

Quite the opposite. Be the manager that supports all the staff. Not the manager that piles pressure on some to relieve the pressure on others.

Also OP if multiple staff, who presumably all live within a reasonable distance of your office, all have their children at home still that completely suggests a lack of available childcare options locally

Excellent post Hunter.

Likely YABU. Depends on the ages of the children, local rates of infection and availability of childcare. Others raised very valid points about limited childcare options (reduced capacities, hours and even openings for BOTH many nurseries and primary school wraparound care). Some schools are offering fewer or no breakfast/after school clubs, some families have unvaccinated grandparents (others have no one around for support) and some babysitters/nannies are avoiding public transport commutes. Where does that leave working parents??

If there is a clear reduction of productivity because they are not putting in the work time, then that is a different discussion. I had to do 2-3 hours homeschooling but then logged on in there evenings to get the needed work completed. You should raise it to senior management and HR on the policies.