To insist my staff have childcare in place?

[willandgrace]

Several of the staff I manage have young kids, we've supported them all year to WFH with kids at home. We are still primarily working from home but as schools/childcare are now open I have said that people need to have appropriate childcare in place while working from home, the same as they would have if they were office based (as they all were previously) - some of the staff are not happy about this but AIBU?

Not really. Not enough to do childcare during working hours

No, but enough to have core hours 9-3 and flexibility either side of that. However, it totally depends if you have to take calls, I had a job where we operated a call helpline and it was operated by...me. I'd tell the team when I was on lunch, but if I eg went to the loo I had to take my mobile with me in case someone phoned. That just wouldn't work if you had smaller kids in the house.

But the job I have now, I have certain calls each week but I could easily work them around childcare constraints if I had them (ds is 18 now so I don't).

I would probably also steer clear of anything that could be perceived as coming down hard on parents WFH with kids, at the moment. You don't want employees hiding genuine struggles if they have to self-isolate with children at home; you also don't want a large tranche of your employees thinking "after all I've done for them this year, now they're getting pissy about childcare when holiday clubs aren't open?" and starting to look for jobs elsewhere.

Initially was going to say YABU, but a bit different that your team deals with clients who need privacy/confidentiality.

Before the lockdown last year, we were not allowed to work from home, and was just a perk for the managers, and overnight all the concerns about security were resolved quite quickly.

Think though that you need to trust your team to deal with their specific situation, and manage the person and not the parent, if that makes sense. If you try and deal with your employees child care, it will cause resentment, so just address the productivity issue, and if it does boil down to childcare, then this is a separate conversation.

We were all called into the office last week, and it was definitely a three line whip, so some people had to juggle a bit, but child care wasn't used as an excuse.

No, but enough to have core hours 9-3 and flexibility either side of that.

It really will depend on job I couldn’t have the three year old around past 3pm every day it wouldn’t work. As zoom calls with clients are just as likely to be scheduled then. She would need childcare either at home or out.

I don't think it's as binary as reasonable or unreasonable. You should certainly set out a clear expectation that, as things return to normal, working time shouldn't be used for childcare, but encourage staff to discuss their individual circumstances with you.

My work says to WFH you need a dedicated space to work and not be looking after 'young children' which is vague enough that if they are problematic the employer can argue it. Ironically the only child of mine who ever tried to interrupt a call was the 13yo who was arguing with DH (who was doing the homeschooling at that point) and wanted to complain to me about how unfair he was . My 8yo is very good at not disturbing me.

I think with the kind of sensitive work the OP describes then you are better working in an office. But maybe the return to the office should wait till 21 June when everything is open again? Give people time to sort out childcare.

@MintyMabel

Our out of school child care isn’t open and we just got an email saying when schools go back it will only be open 2 days a week, no breakfast club either. We have absolutely no alternative. Thankfully by boss isn’t an arsey twat and as long as I get my work done, he isn’t making unrealistic demands and has even offered me a promotion, despite the fact I have to juggle childcare around work.

Our after school care is starting to open after the holidays, five days a week, but children are only able to attend a maximum of two days. It would usually run until 5pm, but it will only be running until 4:30pm. Children also remain in bubbles, so each year group has four spaces available for each two day block.

I thought my son being vulnerable may have made it easier for me to gain a space, I was wrong, I put in a bid in but we haven’t been awarded a space. It isn’t being reviewed until may halfterm.

Their other parent?? What if they are working?? Mine is in construction so on site every day. Fat lot of use he is during my 5 hours a day of meetings.

Well, then you need to arrange appropriate childcare. Or seek a flexible working arrangement until the pandemic becomes an epidemic and childcare opens up.

I think if they are above 8 years old then you do need to implement this. DP's child is above that age and there have been no issues with DP's work.

I think it really depends on individual circumstances and you may have to set a expectation like core hours and potentially adapt for individual circumstances. For example we have childcare 4 days a week but never have done 1 day a week we used to share it with a mix of family childcare, flexi days and shift work. We cannot afford to put our DC in nursery for the extra day at £54 a day x 4 a month. We have compromised with our employers and lengthened our working day 4 days then share the Friday 50/50. Colleagues for example have no wrap around care so share with partners or make up the hours in an evening. We are expected to use AL for anything else like school holidays but obviously not sick leave or isolation periods.

The team member who said it wasn’t fair having to use AL I disagree. We have always had to use AL for sudden unexpected childcare problems if it didn’t qualify for sick leave or dependents leave. And nothing about Covid is fair so why should the company suffer by having all your employees with 20/25+ days of AL to use when business needs to be getting back to normal .

If you haven’t got a HR dept or person I would look to hire or employ an agency. They’re pretty reasonable and can help you get your policies sorted so there is minimal risk of repercussions. They’ll likely also tell you what other clients and companies are doing without naming them so you can get an idea of what others are doing. Covid isn’t going away so it’d pay you to sort this now

YABU - very. Your stance would disproportionately harm mothers of young children, especially single mothers, who have already been absolutely screwed this year. Things are far from 'back to normal'. Please be a decent employer and hold off for a few more months at least. Remember that:

• school/childcare bubbles burst all the time
• children are off school for every cough/cold
• normal wraparound childcare / informal childcare just isn't available at the moment for many
• annual leave, usually saved for school holidays, has already been spent because of the pandemic
• your staff are most likely already exhausted

This approach does have the potential to disproportionately impact women

I always stumble over this point.

Any disproportionate impact is on women who are parents with child care responsibilities and even more so on those women who do not have a partner who picks up at least 50% of childcare.

It really isn't just on all women.

Late to the thread but I think it depends on a lot of things
What childcare is open in the area compared to before (for example my childs after school and breakfast club is open but I know some arent)
Age of children
Whether parents make up the hours later (though I note that they have to be available in core hours)

I would hope my employer would be flexible if my normal childcare was unavailable eg due to a relative not being vaccinated or childcare shut. But I'd be flexible in return.

Also I think you need to clarify what people do in one off situations eg where their child is off sick or they have having to isolate for 10 days.

I do think it's a bit shit where people have realised that they can manage to work with their kids there so are just continuing to do so. I know people with 5 and 6 year olds that aren't planning to use childcare again. It's ok as a one off but I dont imagine it is very good from a work point of view or for the children over 6 weeks of holidays

I agree that you need to speak to individuals to find out what the specific issues are, there may be different ones.

Schools, nurseries etc are obviously open again but some may be offering reduced hours, wraparound care and holiday clubs may have had to cut their numbers. A local holiday club here couldn’t run this holiday because the secondary school needed the building for catch up lessons

My children are 6 and 3 and I can get barely any work done when they are with me so they are either with their dad or grandma or at school/preschool when I’m working. These Easter holidays I basically have made the same arrangements as I would normally if I was in the office, their dad had them last week and this week I’ve juggled it with their grandma and also taking annual leave. I’m a single parent and don’t always have the option of making up hours at weekends etc depending on what shift pattern their dad is working.

If it’s just a case of people not wanting to pay for childcare then that’s a different matter entirely but it may be simply the availability in many areas.

My children's schools refused to take on any extra breakfast/holiday club kids that weren't pre-covid registered. I couldn't afford childcare, most weren't willing to accept my odd work hours anyway, and just wasn;t worth it, so had to quit my job instead.

I’m just really glad I don’t work for you. I have school age children, a demanding and client facing role. I started with a new organisation during the pandemic and have smashed all of my objectives and targets. I have done this with school closures, and even now that school is open I still have some of my working week with children in the background.

It’s obviously optimal with schools open, and small/nursery age children need childcare. That’s not unreasonable, and early years provision has been possible. But that doesn’t mean it’s not possible to get some of my working week done with children in the background. It just requires forward planning (DH has to cover any important meetings that can’t happen in school hours), and flexibility. But for me it is not a problem to do some of my work and supervise children.

@Touloser

Yanbu. Unless the children are largely self-sufficient teenagers (13/14 and up) for most people it's not possible to work and do childcare. Leniency was required when schools were shut, but it's reasonable now to say staff should be working in a distraction free environment.

My office have decided to let certain teams work in the office and not others. So actually they don't get to dictate whether my house is distraction free. I'm working from home, my home isn't a workplace. However I'm working on work time, I'm not being paid to look after my children. Age makes a difference, if they are under aged 9 they will need childcare.

The nature of the job requires long conversations with vulnerable/distressed clients dealing with complex information at times - the calls can be an hour or two long, several times calls have had to be cut short because of continual interruptions from kids,

That's clearly unacceptable - I can't think how anyone could justify that this is acceptable?

@willandgrace

Really interesting to hear the different viewpoints, I am thinking I may be being a bit unreasonable in the short term and should be thinking more in terms of the summer holidays when, in theory, things should be open all being well. It is a difficult situation for all concerned, I don't have any issue at all with some noise in the background if kids are being looked after by other parent for example, definitely not saying other parent needs to take them out the house all day, but having kids interrupting the type of calls we have just isn't ok.

Yes in terms of your observation on timing (assuming that nothing changes again in terms of cases, shielding, etc. before then).

Regarding your earlier post about an 'everybody back in' message doing the same job as 'ensure that you have adequate childcare', the issues are different regarding the amount of control you have over the employees' work location, I think. At the moment I believe the official default position is still "If you are able to work from home, work from home." Is this still technically possible for your situation? Added to this, you have see disadvantages in work patterns of people with caring responsibilities (once again, childcare may be a visible one to you, but it is not the only one that could make for distraction and the thin end of a discriminatory wedge). Once groups return to a workplace outside the home, there are still issues of responsibility for infection minimisation, and employer's duties of care (possibly extending to stress or wellbeing). Schools, nurseries and childcare options not working immediately to the needs of the parent-employee are again a result of government guidance directly related to the pandemic and its changing phases.

In the case of my usual place of work, it's an office capable of taking up to 8 people. Its current recommended full capacity is for 3 because of its layout, with certain desks out of commission and not using the ones directly next to a walkway either, based on health and safety assessment. This means that we will all have to have a wfh rota going forward, and cannot work in the former way unless we are able to get an extra space. Some who are unable to wfh due to factors that are to do with their living space and tech have been able to do the more beneficial thing for them and have used the workplace throughout. You want a one-size-fits-all solution where it's not possible, timing-wise and space-wise, to guarantee it.

@willandgrace

This is a genuine question to those who have referred to indirect discrimination (I genuinely am taking on board all the points made)? If we said people had to come back to the office, all office based prior to pandemic and contracted as office based, where would I stand in terms of discrimination? They'd have to have childcare in place then and broader issue what about people who can't WFH, how is it discrimination that my staff have to have appropriate childcare but not if they work out of the home?

@willandgrace it could quite possibly be discriminatory, this article shows legal precedent www.moorebarlow.com/indirect-sex-discrimination-childcare/

“ This case shows that in considering how a policy will apply to its employees, in order to avoid discrimination the employer should consider whether the policy will actually put employees with a particular protected characteristic at a particular disadvantage, rather than assuming that it will not be discriminatory because, on the face of it, it applies equally to all employees.”

Again, not trying to antagonise a genuine question (I am already rethinking my approach and looking at summer holidays and core hours to offer a bit more support) what would people do if their employer said they had to go back to the office?

If I was told I had to go in I’d question why: in my workplace there’s now months of evidence that roles can be done largely remotely so insisting I must be in immediately while childcare is unavailable seems unreasonable.

@MeltsAway

The nature of the job requires long conversations with vulnerable/distressed clients dealing with complex information at times - the calls can be an hour or two long, several times calls have had to be cut short because of continual interruptions from kids,

That's clearly unacceptable - I can't think how anyone could justify that this is acceptable?

I agree entirely.

If people need to work shorter shifts if no after school care then could be an option.

Overall op I’d suggest HR advice but also yanbu for not wanting to have client calls interrupted.

@willandgrace

Again, not trying to antagonise a genuine question (I am already rethinking my approach and looking at summer holidays and core hours to offer a bit more support) what would people do if their employer said they had to go back to the office?

I would have to quit my job.

@willandgrace

Again, not trying to antagonise a genuine question (I am already rethinking my approach and looking at summer holidays and core hours to offer a bit more support) what would people do if their employer said they had to go back to the office?

If you're asking staff to go back to the office then they would have to either comply or make a flexible working request. From your brief description of the work I think you would be reasonable to ask people to work from the office or if they work from home to have a dedicated work space free from interruptions. You don't have to ban children but you have to make it clear that they must have no other main focus or responsibility during working hours. It is not about children / working parents this but about employees and ensuring standards of work are met.