To insist my staff have childcare in place?

[willandgrace]

Several of the staff I manage have young kids, we've supported them all year to WFH with kids at home. We are still primarily working from home but as schools/childcare are now open I have said that people need to have appropriate childcare in place while working from home, the same as they would have if they were office based (as they all were previously) - some of the staff are not happy about this but AIBU?

My entire job was based around meetings with clients and once DS was over about 6 he wouldn't disturb me unless urgent.

My kids wouldn’t interrupt me unless it was urgent either, I still couldn’t say to a parent in the midst of a child protection meeting “hold on while I sort my child’s bloody knee”. Some job roles and tasks are incompatible with childcare and it sounds like the OPs workplace is one of those. Perfectly reasonable to tell staff they need to have sufficient childcare to carry out their job role professionally.

Many companies have given employers an additional couple of weeks of annual leave to support them in the pandemic. What have you done to help your staff?*
*
I haven't heard of any companies doing this! The OP has allowed WFH with children around, something that isn't normally, and that is exactly what the company I work for has done, and allowed parents to home school in work time. Parents need to realise that if they aren't working someone is picking up their slack, it can't go on. God knows some parents already push the boundaries- always in late, leave early, days off for child appts.

@Beautiful3

The only way to resolve this, would be to ask them to come back to working in the office after the easter holiday.

This is probably why some employers are telling people to go back into the office.

@SofiaMichelle

I have 2. And neither have bothered me once today. Unless the dc are pre school and need your undivided attention it is possible.

the age limit is 'if you can leave them alone if you are required to attend the office you don't need childcare', the same as if they were office based

So you are discriminating against me (person with no children) by not letting me wfh? (if i was a person with no children)
Or you are indirectly age discriminating against me (older person with older children) by not letting me wfh? (if my children are in their teens, i cannot be 20 with a baby for example)

@Atalantea

the age limit is 'if you can leave them alone if you are required to attend the office you don't need childcare', the same as if they were office based

So you are discriminating against me (person with no children) by not letting me wfh? (if i was a person with no children)
Or you are indirectly age discriminating against me (older person with older children) by not letting me wfh? (if my children are in their teens, i cannot be 20 with a baby for example)

oh i should really learn to read....

you meant - they should have childcare if under the age of being left alone, not i cant work from home if they are not younger...

FFS, own wrist slapped, move along

YABU to have a 'while working from home you should not have dependents with you' rule. But you should hear people out on an individual basis and work with them to find alternative solutions.

This Easter holiday might be problematic so maybe say that you will accept 1 week of no childcare but they will need to either take holiday or arrange childcare for the other week.

Or if it's because their after school clubs are still shut, then say you're happy for them to log off at 3pm and then make up the extra 1-2hours in the evening.

If it's because they want to save money on nursery fees this isn't really acceptable. But you could still work with them to find a solution where they adjust their hours to allow them lower nursery fees. So less days but longer days, or working on weekends/evenings.

You also need to be clear this is while the pandemic is ongoing only, and once things open up they'll be expected to have childcare for all working hours.

Wfh with children as a lifestyle choice or to save money on childcare = no.
Wfh with children because they have to = this is far more unreasonable
I don't think anyone disagree much with this. The issue is how do you know it's the matter and not the former? It's easy to say that one doesn't have childcare when ultimately, they dont want to pay for it.

I think it almost needs to be looked at case by case. Difficult to do that fairly though, I know.

Some schools still don't have wraparound care in place, for example. Those who would usually have used various family members for childcare throughout the week now can't do that as you're only allowed one 'childcare bubble.' For some people they have no option but to have their child at home while they work- or give up work I guess.

On the other hand if they have childcare available to them but they just don't want to use it/ don't want the expense- I'd agree with you that they should be using it really.

But you could still work with them to find a solution where they adjust their hours to allow them lower nursery fees
But in this case, it's for the employee to make a flexible working request and OP to decide if it's possible whilst still meeting the demand of work.

It's not a due.

I've only read OP's posts so sorry if I'm repeating.

At the moment, YABU. We are still in unprecedented times. I'm a single parent, with 3 children & a high-pressure job. To deliver my work commitments, I work early & late, and weekends, to an extent I didn't pre-pandemic. That then takes account of the time I need to deal with kids, bring / collect from school etc.

However, this doesn't mean that you should support a drop in productivity.

If this is an issue, start dealing with it, case-by-case.

On the team I manage, productivity has not dropped, and has increased in many ways. There are some who are not working to the level expected - but they are staff who weren't doing so when we were in the office.

My rule of thumb, and as supported by senior management, is that we focus on the output rather than input (within reason!)

That's served me well and avoided resentment from staff, if we went down the instructive route that you are planning.

In my own case, I'm working very productively, and while it's sometimes really tiring for me, I'm so grateful I can do my work effectively & also provide for my kids. Believe me, my organisation greatly reap the benefits from my gratitude!

I note you mention client interactions which need to be free from interruptions. I get this. Most workplaces have some issues like this, including mine. There's absolutely no problem with making this clear. In my case, I do get some help externally when I have these situations. Most professionals will do likewise - might be childcare, might be their spouse, might be hep from their parent.

It's no business of yours what arrangement they make, as long as they operate professionally. If they are not doing so, individually, have a discussion with them, but focus on their work outputs, not whether they have childcare or not.

In my experience, any blanket statements will really put people's backs up, including those who have given over & above.

@BustopherPonsonbyJones

After June, I would expect all services to return to normal. If people are working from home, I will not use companies where I can hear children crying, TVs playing and so on. I think we have been very tolerant of less than stellar service (‘many of our staff are working from home and it may take longer than usual...’) but that is coming to an end. I would ask that tech is upped to a proper level too if people are continuing to work from home. By June (hopefully), childcare will be back to normal too so there shouldn’t be an issue. Obviously there has to be some flexibility for children who need to isolate and can’t attend childcare or school but if working from home is the new normal, childcare needs to be part of that.

What about those with a Stay at Home parent who is providing the child care? There will be background noise regardless, walls are thin.

I work full time and have two school age children and I've just had to manage by making up time early in the morning, evenings and weekends and insisting my husband does a fair share. If I was part time it would be a doddle.
What if you did not have a husband to do his fair share? Still a doddle? My contract wasn't renewed in late September as the possibility of the second lockdown started to be on the cards, and no one hid the fact that it was because I had young children and had to take weeks off unpaid during the first lockdown. Otherwise working 6am to 9am and 8pm to 1am each day every day to cover the work - which was not realistic even for a few weeks, I was so exhausted.

I haven't RTFT, but I have read all of your posts.

I think you're being a bit unreasonable to say you need childcare if they're not if an age to be left at home alone

Plenty of children can sort themselves out for hours on end, but are not necessarily old enough to be left at home alone for a full day when you go into the office. Probably around 8+. Same with after school care, for 6/7 year olds. Happy to have a snack & play while you work.

Forcing people to have their children mix with even more people unnecessarily is uncalled for IMO.

Plus listening to individual employees. I'm sure others have already pointed out that family childcare isn't necessarily available as it was before and a lot of childcare facilities have closed or are full, so it's not easy to get a place or if they had family childcare before they might not be able to afford nursery even if they can find a place.

I would work with individuals if & when their work is suffering and see what can be done. Yes it's more work than slapping down a rule, but if you want happy & loyal staff then treat them like people, not 'staff'🤷🏻‍♀️

...and yes, I have had my own business & employees.

@sophiamichelle

‘How many children are you looking after when you're pretending to work?’

What an odd question- who says I work ? Maybe my job is looking after children. Maybe I’m the boss and appreciate what a hard time people have had over the past year. Maybe I’m not and my boss realises that. Maybe I can multi task between childcare & ‘pretending’ to work. Maybe I can run a small country yet still make time to answer your daft questions.

I haven’t rtft but yanbu - esp as work requires presence on calls

@TheKeatingFive

At least people would have their job held open for them and be able to work some reduced hours that they could fit around the kids.

And struggle to pay their bills as a result Shitty behaviour in an unprecedented situation when workarounds could be discussed. Takes all sorts though, huh?

What is the workaround? I don't understand why you think employers can afford to pay people full time salaries who aren't working full time for a year and ongoing? Surely you do realise many many employers cannot afford to keep their business going if they do that? As I've said, mine already had to make a small number of redundancies. We have to take sensitive, confidential calls unannounced during core office hours as part of our work, we cannot do our jobs if we are unable to do that. I don't understand what other 'workaround' you would suggest here?

Our out of school child care isn’t open and we just got an email saying when schools go back it will only be open 2 days a week, no breakfast club either. We have absolutely no alternative. Thankfully by boss isn’t an arsey twat and as long as I get my work done, he isn’t making unrealistic demands and has even offered me a promotion, despite the fact I have to juggle childcare around work.

@willandgrace

This is a genuine question to those who have referred to indirect discrimination (I genuinely am taking on board all the points made)? If we said people had to come back to the office, all office based prior to pandemic and contracted as office based, where would I stand in terms of discrimination? They'd have to have childcare in place then and broader issue what about people who can't WFH, how is it discrimination that my staff have to have appropriate childcare but not if they work out of the home?

Can you put out a message out hinting that performance now may affect the how you proceed post pandemic. So maybe something along the lines of:

'In anticipation of restrictions lifting we are reviewing our work from home policy. Our decision on what level of flexibility we will allow will be based on a number of factors including; productivity levels while working from home, availability for uninterrupted calls, ability to carry out all jobs tasks in a timely manner, and employee preference. If you have any comments or thoughts about future work from home policy we'd love to hear them'

You've then also made it clear you're reviewing policy and given people the opportunity to comment. Which will help you justify introducing terms such as 'work must have your undivided attention between the core hours of 10am-4pm, this includes not being in charge of dependents' and 'you must have a dedicated workspace that is quiet and free from interruptions'.

@willandgrace

This is a genuine question to those who have referred to indirect discrimination (I genuinely am taking on board all the points made)? If we said people had to come back to the office, all office based prior to pandemic and contracted as office based, where would I stand in terms of discrimination? They'd have to have childcare in place then and broader issue what about people who can't WFH, how is it discrimination that my staff have to have appropriate childcare but not if they work out of the home?

Being a parent is not a protected characteristic in terms of discrimination. So it is unlikely that any discrimination claims could be successful. But if you want to go the full legal/formal way about it and don't show flexibility, you know, the employees also always have the Italian strike option.

What is the workaround? I don't understand why you think employers can afford to pay people full time salaries who aren't working full time for a year and ongoing?

Realising that “full time” needn’t be mon-fri, 9-5. I’m working full time but there are times in the middle of the day when I have to care for my daughter.

@dontdisturbmenow

But you could still work with them to find a solution where they adjust their hours to allow them lower nursery fees But in this case, it's for the employee to make a flexible working request and OP to decide if it's possible whilst still meeting the demand of work.

It's not a due.

100% agree. It's about hearing them out and seeing if there is a solution that works for both of you.

And a flexible working request would definitely be the more sensible way of going about it.

YABU for primary aged kids as lots of play schemes/ holiday clubs aren’t running and many people still can’t take them to grandparents / have grandparents stay.

Nurseries are still open so that covers a lot of the smallest children who need watching most closely.

Secondary age children are capable of looking after themselves and should be allowed to be at home as there is nowhere else to go!

@willandgrace do you have children? What childcare do you have in place? Why have you identified it as a problem now?

I don't understand what other 'workaround' you would suggest here?

Doing non time crucial tasks outside of hours
Swapping time crucial responsibilities with other staff
Shifting project timelines around slightly to allow for two weeks of slightly less than average productivity.
That’s literally off the top of my head.

I don't understand why you think employers can afford to pay people full time salaries who aren't working full time for a year and ongoing?

Who’s taking about paying full time salaries for a year? I’m referencing having to be flexible for two week isolation periods, which is where we are now.

Our out of school child care isn’t open and we just got an email saying when schools go back it will only be open 2 days a week, no breakfast club either.
Yes, similar here - they will be open on the bubble basis (so Mondays is bubble YR and bubble Y3, Tuesdays bubble Y1 and bubble Y4 etc). Which means that I will have at least one child at home after school every day. Called a few childminders, all furloughed so far.