To insist my staff have childcare in place?

[willandgrace]

Several of the staff I manage have young kids, we've supported them all year to WFH with kids at home. We are still primarily working from home but as schools/childcare are now open I have said that people need to have appropriate childcare in place while working from home, the same as they would have if they were office based (as they all were previously) - some of the staff are not happy about this but AIBU?

@Dustyhedge I do agree with you. I can’t do a thing whilst the one year old is awake. She is in to everything. I read a tragic story about a toddler drowning whilst their poor mum was wfh. I would never leave them.

I can maybe do a few emails on my laptop sat next to 3yo whilst she colours or watches CBeebies etc. I’d never leave them unattended at all. It’s more the flexibility of doing my hours in evenings/weekends I am in fear of losing (our job can involve phone calls in office hours however my manager was very understanding of my situation so put me on a totally email based role). However it isn’t sustainable, because I am baked and my colleagues may become resentful of my changed role. I’ve done my job for over 10 years (been part time
For 3) I would be so upset to leave. Just trying to survive til we have nursery spaces for both girls in September...It just feels really unfair because nobody asked for this it’s just shit all round :(

it’s perfectly reasonable to expect that parents have adequate childcare while they are making such calls.

What about situations like bubbles bursting and children being sent home to isolate?

Yes you can as they have a contract to provide you with work for which you pay for. So for hours per contract their job should be their sole focus therefore can't also look after children. Also if you want your staff in the office and have taken action to make it safe then they have to return.

I don't know any office based workers who are categorically not allowed to be office-based

There are still a lot of us in that position. It’s maddening and I would much prefer to be back in my office, but it is what it is.

@TheKeatingFive

it’s perfectly reasonable to expect that parents have adequate childcare while they are making such calls.

What about situations like bubbles bursting and children being sent home to isolate?

We'd have to take annual leave or unpaid parental leave in this situation. I thought that would be the same for everyone. If we're not able to fulfil our job requirements then we have to take leave. That's been our company's position since the very first lockdown, a lot of people temporarily went on reduced hours or furlough.

YANBU. If people are working then they should be working, not half working and half childcare.

Could you have core hours where it is expected staff have appropriate childcare arrangements and then beyond that they have to make up their hours? Then have set tasks and deadlines so it's clear what work is expected to be completed each week. It makes it much easier to target any difficult conversations with those who are taking the piss, and the hard working members of the team will appreciate that management aren't facilitating skivers.

@LowlandLucky

If you had a job that meant you couldn't work from home and didn't have childcare in place you would have to give up the paid employment. If you can't do the job you are paid to for the hours you are paid to do then you can't fulfil your contract and need to resign. OP tell your staff that they have until the first of June to have childcare in place or resign.

OP tell your staff that they have until the first of June to have childcare in place or resign.

it's not clear whether you're suggesting OP threatens staff like that, or resigns themselves. Threatening staff like that would probably lead to Constructive Unfair Dismissal proceedings to deal with, at the very least, or very pissed-off staff looking for different employment, if that's how their employers are going to treat staff during a pandemic.

We *are still living through a pandemic, by the way. Things are not back to "normal" by a long way. Child care facilities, where open, are full.

We'll see how well your comment ages. Over-50s won't be receiving their second vaccination doses until June, so any employer making threats like that is likely to end up looking incredibly ignorant and stupid.

Overall yanbu but a lot of arrangements still aren't running as usual, so I think you will have to be flexible.

This is a genuine question to those who have referred to indirect discrimination (I genuinely am taking on board all the points made)?
If we said people had to come back to the office, all office based prior to pandemic and contracted as office based, where would I stand in terms of discrimination? They'd have to have childcare in place then and broader issue what about people who can't WFH, how is it discrimination that my staff have to have appropriate childcare but not if they work out of the home?

Everythings not back to normal yet though is it. The holiday clubs and actu are not all open and the ones that are Have limited numbers due to social distancing. Breakfast club still hasn't opened for some school s.Grandparents waiting for second jabs. People not having other kids in houses so as hoc childcare is out. Kids still having to isolate etc

Of course YANBU

@TheKeatingFive I’ve had to deal with it, Ive had to adjust my working hours to make sensitive calls during the evenings and weekends, take unpaid leave and juggle like crazy. There’s absolutely no way I could have the conversations I need to in my work with my kids present, it would be disrespectful, unethical and incredibly poor practice on my part. Some of my work is self employed so I have control over that, some of it isn’t. I’ve had to ask folk to leave training courses about things like sexual abuse because they’ve had their toddler/pre-school age children in the room with them. Not every job can be done with children around, should my employee continue to pay me a full wage if I can’t do an essential part of my job. Or maybe I should tell my client that my kids are home so I may need to leave their therapy session to attend to a crying child? Or maybe I look at reducing my workload and adjusting my hours and accept the financial impact of that?

I’m not saying it’s easy - this year has been a bloody nightmare in all kinds of ways, but some jobs can’t be done to any reasonable standard with kids around.

@willandgrace

This is a genuine question to those who have referred to indirect discrimination (I genuinely am taking on board all the points made)? If we said people had to come back to the office, all office based prior to pandemic and contracted as office based, where would I stand in terms of discrimination? They'd have to have childcare in place then and broader issue what about people who can't WFH, how is it discrimination that my staff have to have appropriate childcare but not if they work out of the home?

Those that genuinely don’t have childcare wouldn’t come back though. You would need to either agree for them to be off paid or unpaid, or else accept they will leave with no other option.

Once the government guidance changes, it will be fine to insist everyone is back in the office.

I think it's awful for employers to think like that. Most parents I know that have worked from home throughout the pandemic have been really putting themselves under stress and pressure to keep things going for their employer and also feeling so guilty for not being as good or available for home schooling as their furloughed peers.

It suited you to have them run ragged whilst it benefit you but not that they have the Easter holidays to get through with limited childcare available. How about a bit of recognition that your staff are dedicated and didn't go off sick with the stress of it all or all take parental leave and leave you up the creek.

No one would choose to have young children at home if they had any other option.

@willandgrace

This is a genuine question to those who have referred to indirect discrimination (I genuinely am taking on board all the points made)? If we said people had to come back to the office, all office based prior to pandemic and contracted as office based, where would I stand in terms of discrimination? They'd have to have childcare in place then and broader issue what about people who can't WFH, how is it discrimination that my staff have to have appropriate childcare but not if they work out of the home?

I think you’d need to consult your contracted HR service for a proper answer!

We'd have to take annual leave or unpaid parental leave in this situation. I thought that would be the same for everyone. If we're not able to fulfil our job requirements then we have to take leave.

There’s only so much AL to take though and large amounts of unpaid leave aren’t good options for employees OR the company.

I think some flexibility should be required in situations like these. We aren’t in normal times and working parents have been asked to do the virtually impossible when schools/childcare were shut.

This is of course totally separate from pisstakers who just want to get out of paying for childcare.

@TheKeatingFive

it’s perfectly reasonable to expect that parents have adequate childcare while they are making such calls.

What about situations like bubbles bursting and children being sent home to isolate?

During normal times, it might be reasonable. We are absolutely *not living through normal times.

Bubbles burst, and people have to isolate. Life is already bloody difficult for most people. Being considerate of staff now will pay dividends in the long term. Making the sort of threats that have been offered in this thread (threaten staff with dismissal if they don't sort out childcare? How incredibly mean-spirited and short-sighted. That one could be Priti Patel's twin.)

@ThatWouldBeEnough

YABU. Manage your staff by their output and not by putting rules in place that try to get more out of the lazy fuckers (who will still be lazy) but penalise those that will still deliver (who will get demoralised that their hard work isn’t getting recognised).

This.

I have worked from home on and off since DS was 3. During school holidays most clubs were not open for my entire working day so I would still have him at home for a period first and last thing but he was an easy going child and understood not to disturb me if I was on a call for example.

I would pick him up at say 3pm, bring him home and feed him (taking about an hour out to do this) and then he would happily play by himself or watch tv until DH came home, while I just worked later to make the time up.

It had zero impact on the quality of work I was delivering or my performance.

I completely understand that not all children are like this and some peoples quality and outputs would be affected, but that is for them to put appropriate arrangements in place to prevent this. You as an employer simply need to be clear about the performance expectations.

You then need to address with the employees who's performance does not meet the requirements and have a discussion with them about why that is and agree a way forward.

You cannot assume that poor performance is entirely down to having children at home, anything could be going on in their lives that you don't know about.

I would have been mightily pissed off by a blanket rule telling me that I had to pay for childcare that I neither wanted nor needed just because some of my colleagues were allowing themselves to be distracted and not meeting required performance levels.

No one would choose to have young children at home if they had any other option

I don't think that's neccessarily true. I work with someone who says may as well save some money on childcare and have them home while I am. She still does her job so makes no odds to me, but I doubt she is the only one in the country. I think in regard to holiday clubs etc not being open obviously should be flexibility there, but with nurseries and Childminders etc open (if they're not then they are unlikely to be when offices are back, what are people going to do?), It's not unreasonable. Where I work it has always been a caveat pre-pandemic to have childcare in place if WFH, and with schools back, you could choose not to take the risk, but why should employers take on that risk?

Bubbles bursting is different though from day to day not having childcare. I’d be talking to staff about how they’re going to manage the sensitive parts of their job, focussing on those situations where children have been present. These aren’t normal times but it’s not unreasonable to expect staff to have private, confidential space for sensitive parts of their job.

@willandgrace

This is a genuine question to those who have referred to indirect discrimination (I genuinely am taking on board all the points made)? If we said people had to come back to the office, all office based prior to pandemic and contracted as office based, where would I stand in terms of discrimination? They'd have to have childcare in place then and broader issue what about people who can't WFH, how is it discrimination that my staff have to have appropriate childcare but not if they work out of the home?

I don't think there is indirect discrimination here. Children should be at school or nursery or with family where possible. But I think we're still in a temporary situation with some options unavailable to parents, so it will earn you goodwill to be flexible for self-isolation, school pickups where wraparound care is closed, and school holidays where clubs are cancelled.

I think that it's reasonable to expect that from now until the end of the school year the children are supervised elsewhere during term time.

Wfh with children as a lifestyle choice or to save money on childcare = no.

Wfh with children because they have to = this is far more unreasonable.

Wrap around care is hardly running, holiday clubs are hardly running, childcare is much harder to find, grandparent childcare may be less available, and that's without bubbles bursting all over the place and families self isolating. We have childcare in place, but I am one day down already this week because we had to SI whilst waiting for my husband's test to come back. Children that once would have continued going to nursery/school just with a cough are now off whilst they get tested and with everyone starting to mix again, colds are rife.

It needs to be managed on a productivity level, and with you having a chat with individual staff members.

It's simplistic and naive to say that outdoor just need to use AL and holiday, when two parents using all their AL can barely cover the school holidays as it is, let alone covering bubbles bursting and family isolations. The likelihood is that would mean a lot of unpaid leave, which isn't viable for many families.

@willandgrace

This is a genuine question to those who have referred to indirect discrimination (I genuinely am taking on board all the points made)? If we said people had to come back to the office, all office based prior to pandemic and contracted as office based, where would I stand in terms of discrimination? They'd have to have childcare in place then and broader issue what about people who can't WFH, how is it discrimination that my staff have to have appropriate childcare but not if they work out of the home?

If you asked people to return to the office they would potentially apply for flexible working. You shouldnt reject it without a valid reason. If you have a good enough reason to reject it then potentially they'd have to source childcare, use leave/incl unpaid leave or resign. You are confusing matters though - the fact that they'd need childcare to come to the office doesn't entitle you to demand they have it if they work from home. It really isn't as logical as you think it is. 2 different scenarios, different needs, different situations. What you can demand however is for people to carry out the work to a satisfactory standard, office or home.

@FrangipaniBlue would you performance have been affected if you had a pre school age child home full time whilst trying to work?

It had zero impact on the quality of work I was delivering or my performance.

Would you have been able to have hour long conversations with people about very sensitive issues, eg child protection investigations, counselling for abuse or trauma, discussing finances etc and been confident your child wouldn’t overhear or disrupt?

I can easily do the “office” part of my job with no impact on productivity, I couldn’t do the “people” part of my job without childcare. You can’t compare sensitive people work with office based tasks.