AIBU To Think That Hunting Is More Ethical Than Golf?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I am having this discussion atm and I totally think I'm right. My reasons are:
Golf courses are a waste of land.
And water.
And chemicals.
And manpower.
Golf contributes nothing to anyone except golfers, their sponsors and bookies.

Whereas hunting needs people to look after the land, promoting conservation and natural biodiversity.

AIBU?

But had there not been clearances I'm sure many would have emigrated- long term, crofting would have changed, younger generations moved to industrial cities. The rich industrialists would have (did) buy up the land. I'm not sure how you would stop that to preserve a way of life. Money wins out.

'Many golf courses are expanses of sterile astroturf where no wildlife can live.'

Another one who's never been to a golf course.

Neither are.

Most golf courses have woodland parts. And no one shoots anything there.

For those who asked, yes I have been on a golf course.

@Sundances

But had there not been clearances I'm sure many would have emigrated- long term, crofting would have changed, younger generations moved to industrial cities. The rich industrialists would have (did) buy up the land. I'm not sure how you would stop that to preserve a way of life. Money wins out.

We can't know that. What we can surmise is that delaying the clearances to 'wait' for industrialisation would probably have had a very different effect on the Highlands. I can't see that, with industrialisation on the table, the landowners would have prioritised sheep and pheasants over a factory or two, for example. Maybe the Highlands would have become a centre for cotton, like Yorkshire? After all, at that point in history almost everywhere was remote... Investment, roads, population growth through industry, the whole story might have changed.

@Sundances

But had there not been clearances I'm sure many would have emigrated- long term, crofting would have changed, younger generations moved to industrial cities. The rich industrialists would have (did) buy up the land. I'm not sure how you would stop that to preserve a way of life. Money wins out.

And of course planned emigration is quite different to a forced clearance...

Raising and releasing thousands of pheasants to starve to death seems completely ethical.

Whilst I do agree golf courses could do more to encourage biodiversity I can’t agree with most hunting.

@EvilPea

Raising and releasing thousands of pheasants to starve to death seems completely ethical.

Whilst I do agree golf courses could do more to encourage biodiversity I can’t agree with most hunting.

Ummmm they don't starve to death they are fed really well to keep them in that area 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

A tricky debate.
On the one hand, hundreds more foxes are killed by cars than are ever caught by hunters.
That being said, to deliberately kill a fox is repugnant.

Yes , golfing provides income to a large number of people but the endless mowing of grass prevents ground nesting bees and other insects from growing and feeding.

As to deer, their population needs to be maintained as their hunting grounds are reduced, due to human habitation and the loss of their habitat.

I'm on the fence regarding badgers. The science is very controversial and equally balanced/unbalanced.

My own beef is with fish/bird keeping. Absolutely cruel but is considered quaint.

Yes , golfing provides income to a large number of people but the endless mowing of grass prevents ground nesting bees and other insects from growing and feeding.

But research shows that golf courses provide habitats for birds, ground beetles, bumblebees and trees.

And only around 50% of the course is mown - so that’s still 30 or so hectares of woodland, hedges, meadows, ponds.

What sort of hunting are you talking about? The sort with horses and hounds?
When I've been the hounds chase a runner and he gives them dog treats when they catch him. I have been a runner as well as following on horseback and it's quite something to hear a pack of hounds in full cry coming after you, I'd love to do it again.
I don't really see what was unethical about it. The horses and hounds are well trained and cared for, in peak fitness and so loved by their owners. They really love their jobs.

@babypinkelephant
www.rspb.org.uk/globalassets/mason-et-al-2020-rspb-gamebird-review-1-compressed.pdf

There’s been a lot of recent studies to suggest this is the case.
54million are released a year

I have a gamekeeper father, have gone hunting and have family members massively into golf, so feel this is something I can talk about! I agree with you to a certain extent. A golf course is a highly artificial eniviroment where wildlife doesn't stand a chance. My father, as a gamekeeper, has always been very concerned with the conservation side of things and is careful not to over hunt anything. I don't believe you can lump all hunting together, however. My experience of fox hunting (was actually meant to be drag hunting, but they happened upon a fox) was of no concern for conservation of animals/land. They laid the trail with a quad bike, cutting an unnecessary ryde into parts of the rough. Not sure why as there were paths/rydes/fields to drag across already. They then whizzed about after a fox anyway, so all that work was pointless.

@LostToucan yes, you're right re the ponds, woodland etc, didn't think of that. Is it really 50% though? That surprises me.

A golf course is a highly artificial eniviroment where wildlife doesn't stand a chance.

I think you’ll find that there are a number of studies that will disagree with you there.

@babypinkelephant
A study has suggested that the proportion of birds that die or are lost from the shoot following release and before the start of the shooting season may be between 25 and 30%6. It is unclear how much of this loss is related to trauma as road casualties, inappropriate genetic selection, lack of ability to adapt to their new environment, or to ‘natural wastage’ such as starvation and predation com- parable with the usual losses experienced by wild-hatched birds

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/325047/FAWC_opinion_on_the_welfare_of_farmed_gamebirds.pdf

There is a study out there with starvation figures. But i can’t find it at the moment, as understandably it’s a controversial subject so trying to find the legitimate sites with figures is tricky.

[quote Marvellousmrsbagel]@LostToucan yes, you're right re the ponds, woodland etc, didn't think of that. Is it really 50% though? That surprises me.[/quote]
On average for golf courses in Europe, yes. Lots of courses aren’t of the highly manicured variety.

ec.europa.eu/environment/archives/greenweek2011/sites/default/files/4-7_Isaac.pdf

I agree you cannot lump all hunting together. Like all golf courses shouldn’t be lumped together.

I’m not sure I can argue against careful management of deer. Whilst I find any sort of chasing a wild animal to its death absolutely barbaric.

Some golf courses seem an excuse to hold onto and harbour green belt until it can be developed. Whilst some do a great job of environmental management and biodiversity growth.

@NinePremium

Did you read the links above *@Jumpingjackflash29*?

Yes but one of the fundamental parts of this question is the concept that with hunting, it’s very openly immoral whereas with golf, we are pretending it’s moral

As the vast majority of people in the UK are urban there is no way that the MN massive will agree with you OP and the 'massive' never will.

Golf courses are an environmental waste of space and probs more snobby than most grassroots hunts ever were/are - only time will tell - the rich have always bought up what the poor live on .

Now even less rural spaces for the poor as the urbanized better off buy their own comforts.

Almost like a 2nd Industrial Revolution except this time, no Industry for the Poor to migrate to. Where do they go?

Now even less rural spaces for the poor as the urbanized better off buy their own comforts.

Gosh, I’d better tell my local council that their 5 municipal courses are depriving the poor of the parish of their rights to grow turnips.

Im tempted to suggest that the most ethical option might be to hunt golfers.

@EvilPea I know that there are many birds that stay on my father's shoot and breed there after the season has finished. There are always a small number that do disappear and presumably these are run over or eaten by foxes.
I have been there throughout the year and never seen any evidence of starvation. I will ask about this. It is small in terms of some shoots though and I can't comment on those.

@JocastaElastic that, I would love to see😂