To think this house will be a HMO?

[LetSophieGo]

A single, male relative of mine owns his own home in an area that used to be quite ok but has become fairly depressed.

About 6 years ago his next door neighbour (old lady) passed away and the house was sold to a landlord. He soon let it as a HMO. It has 3 bedrooms and on average about 8 people were living in it - all young men in their twenties (not students). Fast forward many years of hell for my relative, with constant issues including 24-7 noise, nowhere to park, overflowing rubbish, rats, etc.

Last year just after lockdown the landlord sold up. He told my relative it hadn't been licensed and as the tenants had wrecked the place he'd had enough and was selling up. So they all moved out and it went on the market.

Snapped up a few months later by a wealthy Chinese couple who said they had bought 20 properties in the area (!!!). They put a key-safe next to the front door, decorated it, very basic, then disappeared. The property still has a small fire extinguisher on wall and huge locks on all internal doors.

One month ago a lovely guy appeared at the door, told my relative he and his family were moving in soon. Relative was relieved and was happy to know the house was going to a family, etc.

However, no sign of this family since.
In the past 3 days, several young men have appeared outside and gone into the house via the key-safe, talking loudly on phone and walking up and down smoking for an hour (exact same type of guys who lived there when it was a HMO). None of them are related and have all turned up separately, as if they are checking out the house.

I told relative it looks like the 'family guy' fell through and the owners are now reverting it back to a HMO. My relative kind of doesn't want to accept that and is hoping the family move in after all, but I personally doubt it, because if it was already contracted to the family guy, I can't see why these random young men keep turning up there.

AIBU to suspect the HMO thing is starting up again? If I were relative I would just drop it as a lost cause and look for somewhere new. It caused him so much stress for so many years it was agonising to watch.

Has anyone moved in yet?

If it looks like it's going to be another HMO then it should be licensed (5 or more residents). The council will have a list (prob online). Get your relative to report it to the Environmental Health team at the council if the same thing happens like last time.

Thanks, if it is another HMO I think he will probably do that, and then sell up.

Nobody in it yet, though. No furniture. It is puzzling!

I absolutely second the above, I lived in a HMO like this as a student (no one knew each other prior to moving in) and it was absolutely licensed and the council has a record of these (not certain if it's online though). If he has any concerns about anything going on I'd suggest he contact the council and keep contacting them.

It was difficult for us regarding waste though, there were 5 adults in the house but we were expected to fit all out waste into a regular sized bin and recycling bin. It just wasn't enough for that many people but when I contacted the council we didn't meet the requirements for a larger or another bin. We also had other neighbours using our bin when it was full making our situation worse, recycling collection was also refused if there was even one visible item that shouldn't be there. I think councils should make extra waste bin available for these types of properties.

@Northofsomewhere

I absolutely second the above, I lived in a HMO like this as a student (no one knew each other prior to moving in) and it was absolutely licensed and the council has a record of these (not certain if it's online though). If he has any concerns about anything going on I'd suggest he contact the council and keep contacting them.

It was difficult for us regarding waste though, there were 5 adults in the house but we were expected to fit all out waste into a regular sized bin and recycling bin. It just wasn't enough for that many people but when I contacted the council we didn't meet the requirements for a larger or another bin. We also had other neighbours using our bin when it was full making our situation worse, recycling collection was also refused if there was even one visible item that shouldn't be there. I think councils should make extra waste bin available for these types of properties.

I think he will definitely check with the council whatever happens.

What is odd is that there is no public info about it online anywhere. He has searched (so have I) for lettings and spareroom website but in all the years it was a HMO the tenants just seemed to know it was there. It was never advertised or with an agency.

Most of the guys previously were from Eastern Europe, so maybe they had their own local 'grapevine' of info, ive no idea.

But no sign of it being to let, no agent or anything, just random (European) guys turning up and entering with the key-safe. The young family who were supposed to be moving in 3 weeks ago just never been seen since.

would it be an idea for me to post this in the property section?

we would really like some info about HMO's and what might possibly be going on. Perhaps I should copy-paste it there?

Not terribly experienced with AIBU!

Hmos are supposed to be licensed but that offers no protection. We lived next to a student HMO and left because of it. But so many are now on the market and empty so with any luck it will stay empty for a while.

However, if I were your relative I would sell

I think it depends on your council what the planning rules are? In my council you only need planning permission if the HMO is going to be 3 or more storeys, or 7 or more people. A HMO of 6 people over two floors can be done here under permitted development rights. That might be separate from 'licensing' though. The other issue is you could have a HMO of 5 people and not need a licence or planning permission if it's only two storeys. So it can be difficult to find out what is going on unless it's going to be particularly huge. I feel for him, there are now lots of HMOs in our (pretty affluent) area and me and DH are FTBs and it's a nightmare trying to scope out neighbours of houses we view/streets. We viewed a lovely home that a young family only bought about 2 years ago, put new kitchen and bathroom in and put up for sale. We were puzzled why they would do that only to check the planning portal and realise one of their neighbours (terraced) turned into a 7 bed student HMO approx 1 yr after they moved in. We could hear noise even outside the property on a weekend afternoon. It must be awful and this is my worst fear, buying a house to find this is the situation next door or for it to happen after you move in. I wish the council would stop permitting this to happen next door to family homes, it causes so many issues.

I'm not an HMO landlord (no way!) - but others are right, licensing requirements do vary. Enforcement is generally the square root of bugger all which is why landlord licensing is so pointless.

Try and wake your council up after the weekend (I hope this isn't Croydon!). It may also be worth spending £3 on the land registry to see who the owner is; although rogue landlords will not put on their own address.

Sounds more like they are scoping it out for a small scale dope farm tbh.

Some great info, thank you!

What we are most interested in at the moment is why would the owners seeming to be putting a young family in it then a few weeks later loads of random single guys are mooching around, peering in at the window.

I imagine whoever owns it is flexible, possibly open to both HMO and standard tenancies. Both quite different responsibilities though, so you'd think it would be one or the other.

@BLToutanowhere

Sounds more like they are scoping it out for a small scale dope farm tbh.

Haha! God knows. Ive never heard of a regular let or a HMO using a key-safe before though, I thought it comprised insurance or something. Possibly because all the people who go in are never with a landlord or agent so have to view it alone.....either because the owners are overseas or due to covid, weird stuff.

I am a renter myself, and moved house during last year's first lockdown, I can't imagine any agent or LL letting me view alone though!

@BLToutanowhere

Sounds more like they are scoping it out for a small scale dope farm tbh.

How on earth have you come to that conclusion?

Hang on!
That is the odd bit - isn't it a bit irregular to let tenants view a property alone? People keep entering with a key-safe and then leaving shortly after.

over the past few weeks this has involved one young family, and several random young guys. all separately of course, but nobody has moved in and no furniture in it yet.
It seems odd the owner would do that. it seems risky.

This has happened to the 3 bed house a few doors from us. Months of building work and disruption and suddenly there are 7 bedrooms and 7 students living there. I have actually just checked the information available and it isnt registered as an HMO so have sent an enquiry to the council asking if it is in fact one!
I hate people making so much money by doing shoddy work and squeezing people into places so tiny - and the rent is ridiculous.

@Lepetitpiggy

This has happened to the 3 bed house a few doors from us. Months of building work and disruption and suddenly there are 7 bedrooms and 7 students living there. I have actually just checked the information available and it isnt registered as an HMO so have sent an enquiry to the council asking if it is in fact one! I hate people making so much money by doing shoddy work and squeezing people into places so tiny - and the rent is ridiculous.

it’s all some people can afford. I’m sure they’d rather have somewhere to live than not

I think I’d be wondering about cannabis farms.

You say why on earth would you wonder that but my friend had her neighbours come and introduce themselves, young family 2 children, renting.
Kept themselves to themselves but turned out they didn't actually live there and had a huge cannabis farm!

What is the significance of the landlords being "Chinese"

@serin

What is the significance of the landlords being "Chinese"

Dont bore me.

I have listed everything that I know as a fact, which is very little. The point of them being Chinese is that they have apparently no connection to the younger people who keep entering the property then leaving it 10 mins later. AFAIK the Chinese owners live overseas, so are possibly not chatting on the phone in other languages to each man who goes in the house. Unless all these guys and the owners are multilingual.

So it is relevant to the mystery, and I think it is peculiar to try to stem conversation if it mentions a nationality or culture. What is wrong with them being Chinese? It simply means they are not present and involved in the house physically.

Happy?

I'd ring 101 as it does sound like a possible cannabis farm: various people coming and going & no one moving in.

Can you see into the windows or are they covered?

@Babysharkdoodoodood

I'd ring 101 as it does sound like a possible cannabis farm: various people coming and going & no one moving in.

Can you see into the windows or are they covered?

no curtains or blinds up - you can only see into front room and it is just freshly decorated and empty.

I'd initially presumed someone was keeping an eye on the house as the owners are not in the UK, and if you add covid to the mix I imagined it was likely slowing down the completion of the sale, etc.

At present all I know is owners are from China and did not speak a lot of English. The visiting men speak a mixture of languages. This is a low income area and is depressingly lacking in multicultural diversity, so it is unlikely all of these people are just coincidentally connected.
My relative met the new owners once and this is what he was told. That the coupe had bought 20 other properties here but were not living here themselves. They didnt mention what the house was intended for.

We presumed it might be being bought for international students or something similar.

The mystery men are puzzling. Will have a chat with relative tonight and see what he thinks.

Key Safe probably means it’s an Air n B or possibly a short let rental
Or they might be doing work on it in a few weeks time so need the key safe so that they can get in and out and price up the job
The young guys might be contractors
When the council did work on an empty property near me they put a key box on it so that the contractors could come and go without anyone needing to be there and let them in .
Google the address see if it comes up anywhere as a short term let
Put it in booking .com & AirnB and see if it’s listed on there
On booking .com they have the actual street names of apartments

In my area, operating a HMO without a licence is a criminal offence. But that is in NI, and I’m not sure if it differs to the rest of the UK. We also have to apply for HMO status if letting to 3 or more people, whereas it seems to be 5 or more elsewhere. I know our council also requires every HMO landlord to have an anti-social behaviour plan in place, and to provide a 24/7 phone number so that they can be contacted if their tenants are being noisy.

I would suggest ringing the council and asking if they have a dedicated HMO Unit.

The key safe outside would suggest AirBNB to me.

Agree air BnB seems more likely if there's a key safe. But then why the lack of furniture. Maybe a brothel?
I think your relative will just have to wait and see who eventually moves in.
A HMO with 5 or more people must have 2 bathrooms. That seems unlikely in a 3 bedroom house. So it might be worth reporting to the council as it might be illegal. Have a look at the council website in the relevant area and find out what the rules are - they differ hugely. In my area a HMO is any house with more than 2 separate households, even if only 2 floors, and they all have to comply with regs including fire doors on all rooms etc. So a normal terrace with 3 students in it would need registering and fire doors etc. Cynics say that this has been done to put people off renting to students, to force the students into the huge number of rabbit hutch like, over priced student halls that have recently been built.

In response to recent comments:

I doubt it is AirB&B, only visitors are 20-something male, only stay in the for 10 mins, usually talking on phone. No lights ever on, no furniture to be seen and no window coverings. Sometimes can be heard banging or crashing something, but this isn't maintenance work!

In terms of it being a mystery (in case anyone jumps on me for mentioning cultural stuff) the only connecting factors are everyone speaks a different language to each other. They stand outside for a few mins before leaving so my relative has heard their voices. The owners did not speak much English, so unless there is a connecting translator or agent (which there isn't) I don't get how they are all communicating.

Nobody, as far as I know, is in there at night.

these guys are not working or contractors. The only thing that they take in there is a rucksack. They a dressed well and if in a car they levant in the next street.

If it was prospective tenants for a HMO, which is what I had presumed, it doesn't make sense for them to keep turning up there, alone, over the space of 4 months when the house has no furniture and there is no agent or LL to meet them.