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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this house will be a HMO?

54 replies

LetSophieGo · 02/04/2021 17:23

A single, male relative of mine owns his own home in an area that used to be quite ok but has become fairly depressed.

About 6 years ago his next door neighbour (old lady) passed away and the house was sold to a landlord. He soon let it as a HMO. It has 3 bedrooms and on average about 8 people were living in it - all young men in their twenties (not students). Fast forward many years of hell for my relative, with constant issues including 24-7 noise, nowhere to park, overflowing rubbish, rats, etc.

Last year just after lockdown the landlord sold up. He told my relative it hadn't been licensed and as the tenants had wrecked the place he'd had enough and was selling up. So they all moved out and it went on the market.

Snapped up a few months later by a wealthy Chinese couple who said they had bought 20 properties in the area (!!!). They put a key-safe next to the front door, decorated it, very basic, then disappeared. The property still has a small fire extinguisher on wall and huge locks on all internal doors.

One month ago a lovely guy appeared at the door, told my relative he and his family were moving in soon. Relative was relieved and was happy to know the house was going to a family, etc.

However, no sign of this family since.
In the past 3 days, several young men have appeared outside and gone into the house via the key-safe, talking loudly on phone and walking up and down smoking for an hour (exact same type of guys who lived there when it was a HMO). None of them are related and have all turned up separately, as if they are checking out the house.

I told relative it looks like the 'family guy' fell through and the owners are now reverting it back to a HMO. My relative kind of doesn't want to accept that and is hoping the family move in after all, but I personally doubt it, because if it was already contracted to the family guy, I can't see why these random young men keep turning up there.

AIBU to suspect the HMO thing is starting up again? If I were relative I would just drop it as a lost cause and look for somewhere new. It caused him so much stress for so many years it was agonising to watch.

OP posts:
LetSophieGo · 02/04/2021 21:24

sorry if in a car they leave the vehicle in the next street

OP posts:
BJHair · 02/04/2021 21:37

Maybe a weed house
Leaving the car in the next street so no one gets the car reg
If it is they are pretty dumb not covering up the windows so people can look in

LetSophieGo · 02/04/2021 21:42

Also, I think this is relevant to him because the previous HMO caused a lot of issues in the street. The house has been empty for so long now that I think any joined-on neighbours are naturally going to notice when stuff starts happening again. They'd got used to being relaxed Grin

So I think it's easy to tell when something looks odd as very few people come down that street and since the party wall is paper thin you can pretty much hear a bloody pin drop. He works from home and often sits at the front door chatting with neighbours further down. So out of this is visible, it certainly doesn't look like a criminal racket by hey!

OP posts:
LetSophieGo · 02/04/2021 21:43

but hey! gawd.....

OP posts:
ginswinger · 02/04/2021 22:14

Maybe these guys are quoting for works to be done on the house?

I have a lovely HMO next door to me, all professionals and quite polite. I think the LL is quite picky. Makes all the difference.

LetSophieGo · 03/04/2021 00:35

Update: spoke to relative this evening and he tells me he has heard someone in there during the night. This was last week, so he stepped outside and looked - all windows dark, no lights on.

He said he could hear something like somebody watching a film, perhaps on a phone or iPad. At that hour it wasn't anyone else, it was followed by sounds of going up and down stairs and then nothing.

So! It is fascinating odd, just hope you lot are wrong about drugs! If there are never lights on and all windows are bare I doubt it is a weed farm.
if im honest, if this was something illegal, it seems a bit more bizarre and less run of the mill.

Maybe something for a future Newsnight episode!

OP posts:
kwiksavenofrillsusername · 03/04/2021 01:34

My ex used to work as a contractor and would stay in short term house shares, sometimes for as little as a few days at a time. They advertise them on places like gumtree and Facebook, so you could see if anything advertised there. There would often be people coming and going, and he’d often share with Eastern European workers who’d do long antisocial shifts.

If it is a cannabis house then the key safe thing is odd. Surely that would be bad for security?

jessstan2 · 03/04/2021 01:46

The 'house' doesn't seem to have caused any nuisance so far, is largely unoccupied. If it is going to be let as an HMO it will have to be furnished.

There's no point in calling the police if there is no nuisance to neighbours, strange as it may seem, people are allowed to buy a place and leave it empty for a while. The people who have occasionally dropped in for a while may be looking at the place with a view to leasing or buying through an agency (maybe for an HMO), but so far, that hasn't happened.

There's no point in your relative worrying in advance. Tell him to wait and see.

How big does a house have to be to qualify as an HMO and do landlords make money from letting a premises in that way?

LostInABlizzard · 03/04/2021 04:10

Planning permission and HMO licensing are two different things. You can have either one without the other.

LostInABlizzard · 03/04/2021 04:11

How big does a house have to be to qualify as an HMO and do landlords make money from letting a premises in that way?

Three or more unrelated people in a premises is an HMO.
And hell yeah, landlords make a lot more money from these than they would renting the same property as a family home.

Sunbird24 · 03/04/2021 04:59

I’m an HMO landlord (fully licensed, 6 en suite bedrooms, 3 storey Victorian terrace) and this definitely sounds odd. I’ve only had mine 6 years, and use a property manager for ease, but no way would it be left unfurnished and with keys kept in a key safe if there were actually tenants in there. If there’s something going on with contractors the owners may not be fully aware though.

LetSophieGo · 03/04/2021 13:03

Hi, thanks for sharing more info and thoughts.

I don't think my relative is interested in the police or reporting anything. I think, eventually, the only thing he would do is check with council if the house has 'too many' piled in like the illegal one last time. He is after moving in a year or so, so would prefer to just get on with it.

As far as potential drug related stuff, I do not get the impression he would like any involvement with that whatsoever and would probably keep his head down.

But no, as yet, this is def not an AirB&B, nobody is staying overnight (apart from one incident with no lights or furniture, and I imagine whoever that was was not meant to be there). These are also not contractors, no work ever gets done and they look more like people about to go out on a date than lads at work.

OP posts:
LetSophieGo · 03/04/2021 13:06

@Sunbird24

I’m an HMO landlord (fully licensed, 6 en suite bedrooms, 3 storey Victorian terrace) and this definitely sounds odd. I’ve only had mine 6 years, and use a property manager for ease, but no way would it be left unfurnished and with keys kept in a key safe if there were actually tenants in there. If there’s something going on with contractors the owners may not be fully aware though.
I agree with you. the last HMO LL in that house was a bit unconventional (no agent, never advertised for tenants and admitted he didnt want to get a license) but he sold up because they wrecked the place.

we never knew where he managed to find his tenants, just presumed a local 'grapevine'? does this happen?

I mentioned earlier that the owners were from China. This is relevant to me in this instance because the last time we saw one of them he was putting the key safe onto the wall a few months ago. No sign of him or his family since.
we had presumed the letting would be passed to a local agent or manager or something but since then only young lads have been in or out.

OP posts:
Bythemillpond · 03/04/2021 13:14

I am wondering whether the Chinese family rented in good faith to a “family” who have then sub let it

LetSophieGo · 03/04/2021 13:24

@Bythemillpond

I am wondering whether the Chinese family rented in good faith to a “family” who have then sub let it
Hey! When e allowed ourselves to let imagination run away with us we DID wonder if the nice 'family guy' was a cover, lol.

When my relative first saw him, apparently the guy jumped out of his car (had been sat in there for 30 mins or so on his phone after coming our of the house) and introduced himself very warmly.
He told his life story in so many words, described his wife and kids and said "we are so happy we have been given this house!"

Sounds a bit OTT, but we figured he was perhaps full of excitement in a new place (said he was form Spain). That was a month ago and my relative has never seen him since.

OP posts:
jessstan2 · 03/04/2021 13:28

@Sunbird24

I’m an HMO landlord (fully licensed, 6 en suite bedrooms, 3 storey Victorian terrace) and this definitely sounds odd. I’ve only had mine 6 years, and use a property manager for ease, but no way would it be left unfurnished and with keys kept in a key safe if there were actually tenants in there. If there’s something going on with contractors the owners may not be fully aware though.
Is it financially worth letting a place as an HMO, Sunbird, do you have any hassle? Yours sounds pretty good with all the en suites.
SeasonFinale · 03/04/2021 13:31

If there is a farm or other business nearby that employs European workers they may know the landlord and have contact with the owner ao it ends up that their employees all stay there together and when one leaves another of their colleagues moves in.

Sunbird24 · 03/04/2021 13:50

@jessstan2 I would say yes, from my experience. I inherited a sun of money and needed to invest it, managed to buy this property cash and increase my mortgage on my own house to do a full refurb, so I do have the advantage of lower costs to start with. The main benefit is that aside from when I did the refurb the house has never been completely empty, so I always have some rental income. They have a shared living room and high spec kitchen (tbh that house is much nicer than mine!) and I pay for high speed broadband as well as a cleaner every 2 weeks.

LetSophieGo · 03/04/2021 14:00

@SeasonFinale

If there is a farm or other business nearby that employs European workers they may know the landlord and have contact with the owner ao it ends up that their employees all stay there together and when one leaves another of their colleagues moves in.
No, not really. The previous landlord was a HMO and his tenants were mostly European guys. Never knew how he advertised but whenever one left, another quickly came along to fill the room.

The reason I thought it might be being used for another HMO was the same type of guys are now back, looking in or entering periodically, then leaving.

I have no idea if the previous LL knew the Chinese couple he sold it to. My relative did say that the previous LL was still going into the house for many months after the sale.

More info - will list the string of events, so if anyone experience with selling/buying or HMO's can make sense of it.....

1/ first lockdown house goes on market. old HMO tenants move out.
2/relative sees the HMO landlord in street and they chat. LL says he's had enough and selling up.
3/ few months later house is sold by purple bricks.

4/same month relative sees a large, expensive looking vehicle in street. ~Elderly Chinese couple inside. He said it stood out because they didnt say hello when he did, and they stared straight ahead. Returning home later they were still sat there, just watching the street. He later forgot this, like you do.

5/maybe weeks later the old HMO landlord is still coming to house. He is in there with the Chinese couple. showing them around I guess. Heard LL telling workman later that the lady bought 20 local houses and was a nice woman.

6/weeks later old LL still coming to house, had someone decorate walls quickly and replaced carpets. That was it for a while. Odd since he sold it months ago.
7/Old LL still turning up at odd hours, now with a young Chinese couple. All seemed merry and lots of laughter. This is a good while after house sold. Relative presumed the young couple were going to be tenants but couldn't see why previous owner was showing them around!

8/ random young guys go in, stay 5 mins then leave. Relative thought somebody was keeping eye on place as the owners were not local.

9/ Elderly Chinese man arrives and puts key safe on wall outside, then leaves.
10/ young men begin arriving periodically, as mentioned. No furniture or work being done. Nobody staying longer than a few mins. Cars usually left in next street.

11/ man goes in to house, alone, chats on phone for an hour or so (loud so not easy to miss) then sits in car outside for a while. He noticed my relative going out and jumped out of car to shake hands with him. Said he was from Spain and had been given the house for his family. He described his family, told his name and said he was excited to move in.
Relative was pleased, he seemed pretty cool.

12/since then, no sign of family man and continued, periodic arrival of young men, mostly Eastern European. They often chat on phone outside then go in for a few mins.

It is a tiny street, a dead end, only a few houses on it so an empty one is noticeable and it is not difficult to notice changes, in case anyone things my relative is a curtain twitcher, lol. He is admittedly nervous about what trouble he had in past with the HMO so admittedly he is cautious.

Worth noting - my relative WFH and in front room so when people stand on phone outside window he can hear. Each person who has gone in there comes out and speaks either arabic, European, etc. If they were doing viewings surely they would all adopt the language of the agent/manager?

sorry it's long, but I wanted to put a decent timeline in case any landlords on here can make sense of it!

OP posts:
jessstan2 · 03/04/2021 14:04

[quote Sunbird24]@jessstan2 I would say yes, from my experience. I inherited a sun of money and needed to invest it, managed to buy this property cash and increase my mortgage on my own house to do a full refurb, so I do have the advantage of lower costs to start with. The main benefit is that aside from when I did the refurb the house has never been completely empty, so I always have some rental income. They have a shared living room and high spec kitchen (tbh that house is much nicer than mine!) and I pay for high speed broadband as well as a cleaner every 2 weeks.[/quote]
Sounds good to me!

StanfordPines · 03/04/2021 14:15

@Bythemillpond

I am wondering whether the Chinese family rented in good faith to a “family” who have then sub let it
Oooh. That’s an interesting idea.

We had a cannabis farm in a house a couple of streets away. Nice quiet residential area. No one noticed until the police knocked the door in!

jessstan2 · 03/04/2021 15:11

I understand you are concerned for your relative, op, but it really is his problem, not yours and you say he is planning to move soon anyway.

It may all turn out well eventually.

LetSophieGo · 03/04/2021 15:59

@jessstan2

I understand you are concerned for your relative, op, but it really is his problem, not yours and you say he is planning to move soon anyway.

It may all turn out well eventually.

True! He isn't anywhere near as curious as I am, but then I love a mystery Blush

I am sure it will have a mundane explanation but it's been fun playing detective over it. So long as nothing becomes serious/drug related I guess it doesn't matter.
I was concerned for him regarding HMO issues in the past though. It created a lot of stress:(

OP posts:
LetSophieGo · 03/04/2021 20:35

Small update:

not interesting sadly, but 2 of the young guys arrived today for a short time and appeared to repair an internal door. I am visiting so saw this, one of them said hello, we are fixing a door.

Then they smoked about 1000 fags next to my relatives open window and left us swimming in a sea of Marlboro Grin

So my impression is they are HMO tenants. All a bit irregular with the key safe and whatnot but the only thing that explains over 6 different European lads entering on one house is their interest in it as a HMO.

They're not workmen or contractors. Just regular lads with a huge penchant for cigs.
And I can't see why they'd make themselves conspicuous drilling a door if they were hiding drugs.

However, the Noel real mystery here, for my relative, is why, in the middle of these visiting young lads, did a Spanish family say there were moving in? We saw the lads in there before, and after. So if it was simply a HMO, I can't see why a family was involved.

It will have a sordidly boring explanation. If anything wild occurs, I will let you know!

OP posts:
TeachesOfPeaches · 03/04/2021 20:41

I thought you said Chinese family not Spanish family before ?