To think that women don’t tend to do trades because it’s not encouraged at school?

[Merryoldgoat]

This not a bit serious thread but I’ve thought about it a bit recently.

Since we’ve had a house I’ve done a few bits of DIY at home, very simple like painting, to a bit trickier like laying laminate.

I really like it and I built a garden table during lockdown and have a few projects that I’ve got in the pipeline.

I get so much pleasure out of the woodwork in particular and I remember briefly doing woodwork at junior school and loving it.

It never occurred to me I could take it further. I went to an all-girls high school and the only practical stuff we did was art and cooking.

I’m not saying I’d have become a carpenter, but it’s something that’s gives me pleasure and I doubt I’m unique.

My DH hates DIY - I have painted, mounted the TV, assembled all our furniture, put up shelves, wallpapered etc without assistance but if I mention to a colleague thar I did that I’m met with real surprise and I get the feeling it’s not seen as a hobby for a woman.

YANBU - should we be encouraging girls to do more DIY and practical stuff from younger

YABU - it’s not necessary and girls will seek out whatever interests them eventually

As I said this is just a musing and not a big deal - I’m reflecting on a morning as I plan my jobs for the weekend.

@MildredPuppy

I was thinking about this when our Gas Safe man was moaning that his hands were too big to put in some gap to tighten something. I realised i was physically so much more appropriate for all the fiddly bits of his job. Also when i see them crawling about in small spaces. I think power tools and better designed tools take out the need for physical strength

Power tools absolutely do not remove or replace the need for physical strength. Pulling cables through can be incredibly labour intensive. Many tradesmen have fucked knees and hips by the time they hit 50. If you're a gas engineer you're using few power tools because you're introducing a spark risk if you do. If you're a plumber you're crawling through shit.

It's absolutely crucial and valuable work. There's been a change towards apprenticeships for the worse which has seen the number of people completing them plummet, as is seen by the dire shortage of tradespeople across the piece.

It's very hard work, but can be very rewarding work.

I tried to do wood/metalwork at gcse but none of the boys would talk to me & it felt a very hostile environment.

I gave up & changed my class.

And also DT isn’t always about ‘trades’ it’s about design too. The higher you go the more sophisticated the aesthetics.

So ‘trades’ and DT are different things.

I don't think schools can be blamed here. It's society at large that promotes trades as male roles not just schools.

My school pushed me towards being a social worker. There was zero chance of that happening. Too much studying and not enough cash. All I was interested in was making a fast, legal, buck so I went into retail management, not a career that was even considered as a choice. I drifted through various other jobs and when I eventually retired I was a practicing psychotherapist, another job that wasn't even an option for an 18 year old comp girl in the 1970s.

Trades aren't encouraged full stop. Even from year 7 they push A-levels and university as the desirable path (I remember vividly going to a Year 6 open evening where it was made extremely clear that ALL pupils were expected to go on to sixth form where they only offer A-levels), and vocational courses at 16+ are barely mentioned, let alone apprenticeships.

I agree that trades are seen as a male thing, but there are probably lots of women who would prefer to deal with another woman. I think if you are a competent female plumber or electrician you will be even less short of work than the men.

If I had a practically minded child I'd definitely steer them to learning a trade. Nothing to stop them doing a degree afterwards but plumbers and electricians are never out of work if they are good.

@Nocar

I don’t think trades are encouraged for either sex really, they're normally pushed at young people that are not really very academic.

Which is quite astonishing really as you need both practical dexterity, and the ability to understand complex pipework or cables as well as have excellent problem solving skills (assuming plumbers and electricians here). And tons of patience.

Granted, quite a few of them don't have people skills.

My grandad and uncle were both carpenters/cabinet makers and some of my fondest memories of my child hood were spending days with my grandad in his workshop at the bottom of his garden. I was fascinated at the things he could make and was tasked with sanding or using a wood planer- usually on random off cuts!
I remember helping him make me and my sister wooden hobby horses with wheels. We had custom crafted skipping rope handles, abacuses, baby doll cots, a little wooden play cooker, rabbit hutches and runs, he made me a four poster single bed.
The smell of freshly sanded wood transports me back to my childhood.

I wish I had taken wood working at GCSE but was pushed into textiles (or cooking) as I was a girl... I wish that had not been the case. For a few years I have been toying with the idea of a woodworking course at my local adult college but life has got in the way.

I'm glad to hear that many DT teachers are female. I was really disappointed that they were all make at my kids' school because I thought things would have moved on since I was at school.

I agree. I wish so much that I had more practical skills, and also that I could choose to deal with female tradespeople if I prefer.

The "trades" isn't an attractive career option for men neither. The way schools teach it is pretty poor. My son's experience over the last few years is very little different to my experience 40+ years ago! It seems to be a subject more for the "trouble makers" than people who actually want to go into the trades. When you get into the exam years, it's all about product design/evaluation etc rather than actually making/doing things, so they're trying to turn it into a more theory/academic subject which is no good for those actually wanting to "do" the trades.

It’s so short how undervalued the skills of tradesmen are.

My neighbour is an extremely accomplished tradesman and whilst we got pissed in our garden he erected a summerhouse from scratch and built a deck. Watching him work is really exciting.

It is a theory/academic subject. It’s a STEMsubject.

Design and Technology is very different to ‘trades’

Its about product design in whatever material and involves the use of aesthetics. And as a designer evaluates and develops, this is what the subject does. It mimics the role of design. Making is only about 25% of it.

So DT is not a ‘trade’ subject. It’s about design, research, marketing, and materials science. It’s not just about making something.

My friend is an electrician
He said the worst bit of the job was crawling round old roof spaces with rats !

I do the majority of DIY at home apart from when I need a bit of brute strength from my husband. I loved woodwork and metalwork at school but then I changed areas and my new school only did Home Ec and drama.
I was really thrilled when I found out that locally we have a plumbing company run by a woman and happily took her number and called her the minute I had a plumbing related problem. Unfortunately she was absolutely terrible and screwed up the jobs I gave her beyond repair. Apart from being angry that I had to get another firm to clear up her mess, I was really disappointed that I couldn't recommend her to other people.
Unfortunately -as in so many things, women have so much more to prove when they operate in a traditionally male area. It's not fair, but it's true. I would love to see trades presented as a viable career path for girls - I mean it's not like they can't be lucrative ( if my last decorator's quote is anything to go by!)

I work in construction, not a trade but partly site based/partly office based.

When I started 15 years ago I was 97% of the time the only female on site. In recent years that has really changed, it’s great. We’re still a long way short but there’s definitely more women.

I would echo what some of the others say though, depending on your trade it is very physical. Obviously there are lots of women that can handle that but equally there’s a lot that wouldn’t.

I think as a workplace it’s getting better though, a lot of the old sexist dinosaurs are retiring so it’s better.

When I was at school, the only people doing apprenticeships were the ones highly unlikely to get any GCSEs.

I think there are also physical considerations. Girls can absolutely learn to fit out a bathroom but there is a lot of physical work getting tiles off walls, into sacks, into the van, lifting and fitting heavy items that are easier for men

In D&T we all did the same projects/ skills, progress on my mother's generation where there was a traditional cookery/ needlework and metal/ woodwork split.
What I did find was that with limited specialist equipment, I never finished a project because I wasn't pushy enough to get to the front of a queue, a trait that favours expectation of male behaviour.

Vocational courses from the Blair years were more directed at getting less academic students who were unlikely to get 5 A*-Cs on conventional GCSEs and were more likely to reach the standard by that route. There did tend to be a split of girls to childcare, beauty, travel and tourism and boys to construction, vehicle maintainence.
Largely a moot point now as many of these courses have been dropped in the face of budget cuts and progress 8.

I do some DIY with DH. Often painting and assiciated preparation, but also things like tiling. I find my main hinderence is my own strength and the ergonomics of tools. If the grip is too chunky for my very small hands, I find it more tiring and less efficient compared to him.

1980 I was 14 and entry to comp I had a choice of home economics or technical drawing, woodwork and metal work..there were 3 girls including me who did it. Although we were allowed, the boys got all the attention. We were not overly encouraged. I was rubbish at the activities.

@TeaTimeReader

I think there are also physical considerations. Girls can absolutely learn to fit out a bathroom but there is a lot of physical work getting tiles off walls, into sacks, into the van, lifting and fitting heavy items that are easier for men

Maybe... But I went into working with horses which I'm not convinced is any less physically demanding. I'd often unload 300+ bales of hay, or 100 bags of feed without much help.

I agree. As a 1990s child I don't think it ever occurred to me that I could take more practical or stem subjects. I did the traditional 'girls' thing of doing English and humanities subjects. It was only last year when I was explaining something I'd thought of for our house that a builder commented that I should probably have gone into engineering. It feels a bit late now but I feel gutted that I didn't!

I am the DIY bod in my house, from years of bugging my dad to explain to me how to do stuff. My children, one of each are equalling taught how to do stuff as well.

I am a secondary teacher, in my school we have a Tech (not food or textiles) teacher, I have 2 friends who are both Tech but again main subject is not food or textiles, who are both female Tech teachers, one is a Head of Department. At my last school the Technology Head of Department was also female and her specialism was resistant materials.

My electrician (electrics I undertand but scare me) is an all female company.

I also run a guide unit and we try to incorporate these skills as part of our programme.

Maybe... But I went into working with horses which I'm not convinced is any less physically demanding. I'd often unload 300+ bales of hay, or 100 bags of feed without much help.

With all due respect I don’t think you are in the same physical condition as the majority where females, that is seriously impressive . But even still lift concrete blocks around a building site for a day, not for the faint hearted, although given your experience I’ve no doubt you could. Most men who are by virtue of their genes on average far stronger and more physically able baulk at the notion not to mind your average woman. Reinforcement bars for concrete, steel beams to be manhandled into position, scaffolding poles, bags of cement weighing 25kg. There is no limit to the physical manhandling that goes on on building sites all day every day which for health and safety reasons are minimised and equipment is used wherever possible but most of construction work in trades is still extremely physically demanding at times.

I teach in Apprenticeships and I do encounter some women in typically male dominated trades. They can do very well. However it’s worth remembering that physical strength is still an advantage and men are in general stronger than women. Small hands may be useful in some situations but a strong grip is more generally useful. When I was young I worked in a typically male job and was very aware that, though I was unusually strong for a woman, a man of the same size would be much stronger. Equipment doesn’t always compensate for this discrepancy.

“apprenticeships and trades were perceived to be for the less able.”
Yes, normally by people who can’t hang a picture, let alone fix a leak.