annoyed or flattered- wolf whistles?

[Nothingyet]

Today's report gets the usual DM reactionary backlash:www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9411429/Scotland-Yard-chief-urges-women-feel-uncomfortable-wolf-whistling-report-incidents.html#comments

Grim but does remind me of last of summer wine episode where Marina kept walking past building site to deliberately get whistled at

@TeaAndWaffles

The people I know who are flattered by it tend to be the ones who equate their self worth to how attractive they are to men. It's kind of sad too how the narrative online seems to be that women who dislike it are just ones who are jealous of the aforementioned women. So much for progress!

But their self-worth is actually tied up in how attractive they are to loser men. The absolute bottom rung of men.

How can that ever be perceived as ‘flattering’?

Women who dislike it, dislike it because they probably tend to be, if anything, more on the receiving end of it, are sick and tired of it, and don’t find it ‘flattering’ - because they wouldn’t touch such men with a barge pole, could do a million times better, etc, etc.

Annoyed. Frightened. Affronted. Intimidated.

Never, ever flattered.

Paris Lees has something to say about this...

Is that an updated article?

The one I remember said women who didn't like Street harassment were trying to spoil everyone's fun.

And I don't remember the conversations with anyone else.

The one I remember was way worse than that.

Maybe I remember wrong but there was a huge amount of criticism so a bit of a rewrite wouldn't be a surprise

It still reads pretty offensive to me

She says you are allowed not to like it if you have personal reasons eg having been a victim of sexual violence but she still thinks it is harmless and a compliment and enjoys the attention. So if you are offended you should suck it up so Lees can get her affirmation.

Also working class women apparently like being cat called and it's just silly middle class women who don't because they look down on builders. Apparently they would love it if it was City bankers doing it.

She also comes across very thick/ full of inverted intellectual snobbery.
She doesn't like 'theories' and doesn't see any connection between cat calling and rape culture. Just because that individual guy isn't necessarily going to rape the woman he is cat calling Lees thinks there is no connection.
One of her interviewees tries to patiently explain that it's about power play and it's reinforcing men's power over women and encouraging a view of women as sexual objects who don't need to consent
Lees makes out she just doesn't get it [ooh I'm just a ditzy blonde slut I am]

Lees ' solution is actually more cat calling. If only gay men and older people got cat called from building sites too then it would all be fair and OK.

The need for affirmation reminded me of the appalling excerpts from Detransition Baby that were posted here recently where a trans character suggests that all women enjoy sexual violence and rape because it affirms them as women.
I think it's really scary that Lees expresses a watered down version of that thought.

Lees seems to realise that she is open to criticism that it's only trans women who like cat calls so she asks her sister who apparently loves them too. So that's OK then.

Altogether still a very offensive article.

It’s part of a culture that infantilises women and teaches them to be constantly afraid. I wasn’t brought up that way and I don’t feel frightened when some spunky dude comes and talks to me.

No, because you used to be a man.

There aren’t enough 🙄🙄🙄 in the world.

No, because you used to be a man. Exactly.

As PL writes: "So I may – may – not represent all women."
I would say there's no "may" about it. She has never been that 12-year-old being catcalled while walking home from school in school uniform and can FOTTFSOF as far as I'm concerned.

@BaileysforBreakfast

No, because you used to be a man. Exactly.

As PL writes: "So I may – may – not represent all women."
I would say there's no "may" about it. She has never been that 12-year-old being catcalled while walking home from school in school uniform and can FOTTFSOF as far as I'm concerned.

Exactly.

I do wonder if there is perhaps a classist element to it.
IME it is predominantly working class men who tend to wolf whistle and cat call. I admittedly haven't checked the stats but I don't think that WC men are disproportionately guilty of rape and sexual assault.

So whilst I am no fan of the practice I think its disingenuous to presume that it is a 'gateway to the normalisation of rape/sexual assault'

They’re inevitably knuckle-dragging, illiterate, Sun-reading, white van men. Who could possibly find attention from such a lowly specimenflattering...?

Case in point.

I'd much rather be shagging Boris on the sofa of his marital home for example

@ZednotZee

I do wonder if there is perhaps a classist element to it. IME it is predominantly working class men who tend to wolf whistle and cat call. I admittedly haven't checked the stats but I don't think that WC men are disproportionately guilty of rape and sexual assault.

So whilst I am no fan of the practice I think its disingenuous to presume that it is a 'gateway to the normalisation of rape/sexual assault'

When I was at university, there were plenty of public school/middle class sexual harassers. Especially amongst the rugby crowd. It's a misogyny thing. It's a male entitlement thing.

I'd much rather be shagging Boris on the sofa of his marital home for example

Whilst I don't view catcalling as a compliment, I couldn't go this far

@greycloudsky

I didn't know that only the middle classes played rugby at University.
Interesting.

In any case, beyond university which was a drunken free for all of poor behaviour I have only been cat called by WC men. I have been subject to misogyny from the whole sphere of the socioeconomic spectrum.
The attack on wolf whistling etc is an attack on WC misogynistic practices and I have no issue with this providing we are honest about it and are as scathing of the more insidious practices of the middle class perpetrators.

A WC man has never, for example placed his unwanted hand on my knee in his wife's presence at a dinner party or made a pass at me whilst giving me a lift home from a work function.

[quote ZednotZee]@greycloudsky

I didn't know that only the middle classes played rugby at University.
Interesting.

In any case, beyond university which was a drunken free for all of poor behaviour I have only been cat called by WC men. I have been subject to misogyny from the whole sphere of the socioeconomic spectrum.
The attack on wolf whistling etc is an attack on WC misogynistic practices and I have no issue with this providing we are honest about it and are as scathing of the more insidious practices of the middle class perpetrators.

A WC man has never, for example placed his unwanted hand on my knee in his wife's presence at a dinner party or made a pass at me whilst giving me a lift home from a work function.[/quote]
You're being deliberately obtuse and know that's not what I meant. Interesting.

Anyone who thinks being whistled at is flattering likely receives no genuine compliments from anyone that matters and lives a terribly sad life. They also seem to be the type of people that think wolf whistling is harmless and that it's Not All Men.

@greycloudysky

Well yes, in part because what you meant was to be disingenuous.

Beyond the small part referring to you my post was utterly candid, so I find it interesting that you have quoted me verbatim whilst accusing me of being obtuse.

It's always annoyed me, but my nearly 90 year old mother always loved it. She's still convinced the local men set their alarms so they can watch from their window as she does her "fast walk" in the mornings. Her self-esteem is derived from believing that she's pleasing to the male gaze.

I mostly get abuse from street men now (middle-aged and I make no attempt to prettify self) Preferable to cat-calling, but why can't men just #bekind, like women are told to be?

[quote ZednotZee]@greycloudysky

Well yes, in part because what you meant was to be disingenuous.

Beyond the small part referring to you my post was utterly candid, so I find it interesting that you have quoted me verbatim whilst accusing me of being obtuse.[/quote]
Again you're being deliberately obtuse.

I'll spell it out for you: It's not a working class thing or a middle class thing. I have experienced misogynist behaviour from men from all backgrounds. I hope that's clear now.

@SplendidSuns1000

Do you mean that to imply genuine pity or simply superciliousness?

Its difficult to tell without the context of tone.

@greycloudysky

I'm unsure what you feel the need to spell out exactly.

I have stated that misogyny is the preserve of all socioeconomic classes of men, mostly but not entirely heterosexual ones.

I do not agree that wolf whistling is a practice which many, if any MC men involve themselves with. It is a hallmark of WC misogyny only beyond the age of about twenty or so.

You appear to disagree.

[quote ZednotZee]@greycloudysky

I'm unsure what you feel the need to spell out exactly.

I have stated that misogyny is the preserve of all socioeconomic classes of men, mostly but not entirely heterosexual ones.

I do not agree that wolf whistling is a practice which many, if any MC men involve themselves with. It is a hallmark of WC misogyny only beyond the age of about twenty or so.

You appear to disagree.[/quote]
Do you always speak like a supercilious sixth former? I'll be glad when the Easter hols are over.

Work it out for yourself.

@greycloudysky

Yes after the 'Easter hols' I revert to my usual form of grumpy middle aged illiterate

Some building firms have instructed their men not to do this. If men misbehave, I would write to the company. I wouldn't wait for it to be done on a regular basis, either. Once is enough and it needs nipping in the bud. Now is the time to tackle it.