Neighbour putting up extension

[BigPaperBag]

Ok, our neighbour has informed us that they are going to be putting up an extension. No problem with that, their house and all that. What really riled me was when he just said ‘and we’ll be putting the scaffolding on your patio so we can rebuild the wall’ (in total it will be there about 6 weeks) Please don’t anyone ask me why it’ll be there so long as I genuinely don’t know, this is just what he said.

Anyway, AIBU to say that he can put scaffolding up but only if he rents my patio space? Do people do this? It’s my first owned home so I have no idea, just asking for opinions really.

Another vote that’s says say no. It’s your house, garden and patio after all. He’s right at the beginning of the project and he’s already being a CF

Please get a PWA agreement and appoint your own surveyor which will be at your neighbour’s cost. There should be no cost to you for this. Our neighbour sounds similar to yours and approached us in a similarly bolshy way. You can both appoint the same surveyor which your neighbour will probably push for as it would be cheaper but I would advise against this. Surveyors are supposed to uphold the act, not misrepresent it for their client which is what our neighbour’s did. We are so glad that we had our own surveyor as it did end in dispute as they were pushing for so much that wasn’t covered by the act and were told no by a third party and had to pay the dispute costs. The AA home insurance advises if there were to be damage in these circumstances that if
you tried to claim for they would expect a PWA agreement to be in place. www.theaa.com/home-insurance/advice/neighbour-damage-and-home-insurance

Just say you have checked with your insurance company and they said no.

My friend had her single storey kitchen extension built year before last (she's end of terrace) and her neighbours refused to let them onto their garden at all to build. My friend is lovely and would have replaced any damaged grass in their very ordinary garden. They needed to use one foot of land. But the answer was firmly no, after they had been politely asked and considered it.
Consequently the extension was smaller so they could build the walls while remaining entirely on friends land.
Sadly COVID-19 hit soon afterwards. Did my friend offer any help to neighbours? No she did not. They reaped what they sowed.

• if it had been an emergency, of course she would have helped them. But this made her realise that they weren't the lovely neighbours she had thought they were.

@BigPaperBag Party wall agreements aren’t costly. I’ve just had one. What is costly is if he doesn’t have one but causes any damage to your house, he’s then got to prove it wasn’t his fault. With a party wall agreement in place it would be you that had to prove he caused the damage.

Honestly, I’d refuse scaffolding unless a party wall agreement was done so you can understand what work he had planned.

@milinhas and @BoJoHoNo are right about damage.

Not only would I refuse permission to use the patio, I'd be taking detailed pictures of it and everything along the boundary, so that if any damage is caused, you have evidence that it wasn't there prior to them doing the work. And I'd write to the neighbour and tell them that I'd be holding them liable for the cost of fixing any damage caused to my property during the works.

My neighbour's scaffolders dropped a scaffold board and a clip that smashed a hole through our garage roof and landed on one of DP's motorbikes (the most expensive one, of course). Her builders were great, fixed the roof, bunged DP £50 to replace the ripped bike cover (bike was undamaged) and then NDN bought him a new bike cover and gave us a bottle of wine.

The scaffolders were utter cheeky fuckers. We gave permission for them to come onto our drive to put the scaffolding up. I came home from work one afternoon to find that they'd put poles diagonally across the width of our drive, I couldn't park the car in the drive and it was impossible to get the motorbikes out. They also denied damaging the garage, despite me having taken pictures of the board half through ther roof and the clip on the floor.

NDN was mortified, builder was hugely apologetic and they had to come back and change it all. (The builder and his workmen were lovely, and I actually quite missed them when they'd finished. They used to carry my shopping from the car for me and stuff like that!)

It would be a huge "no" from me, and I'd want a party wall agreement too.

One of my BILs has a building company and he thinks that all scaffolders are anti-social psychopaths. He sacked off several companies before he found a firm that were reasonable, and even then he tries to make sure that he's on site when scaffolding goes up in case they take the piss.

It's very easy to for MN on here to tell you to say no and deliberately be obtuse because your neighbour was rude etc.

But if you ruin your plans for your neighbour's extension, you will destroy any goodwill between you. So at best, 5 years down the line when it's you that needs the favour or his co-operation....At worst, he could quite simply ruin your life, you only have to read the neighbour from hell stories on here.

I'm not saying yes and I'm not saying no but I would suggest a proper meeting with him and his builder and surveyor so you can find out what's what.

At the moment it sounds like your neighbour doesn't have the full facts either hence the back of a fag pack style description.

No!

Insist on a party wall, it protects you if there is any damage.

As for the scaffolding - I'd have let him if he asked nicely. Now, I'd probably be much more awkward

@BeepBoopBop has a good idea. I'd go round today and say you need to check with your insurance company and you'll let him know if it's ok to put scaffolding up.

At the moment he is probably thinking you are in agreement so I think you need to speak to him today so he knows you are still thinking about your options.

If the builders have to work from the other side it could compromise the finish on the wall you have to look at,

Agree with everyone saying he must get a party wall agreement signed. Not only that, but it is your right to choose the surveyor. He cannot build anything within about 6 feet of your foundations without a party wall agreement. If you google it you will find the exact distances.
Ask to see his builder's and scaffolder's insurance certificates and make sure the insurance cover is adequate and includes damage to your property and the pavement etc.
Our builder had insurance up to 2.5 million.
If his builder damages your foundations it would be very, very expensive.

I would definitely get a PWA and your own survey. Also check with your insurance about what happens to your cover in these circumstances. You need to know what finish you will have on your side. Also will the party wall be extended such that you can attach to it later should you want an extension. Not sure if PWA usually include those aspects but they seem important to me. You also need to ensure nothing overhangs your land, e.g. Guttering. Having these things spelt out and proper advice from your own surveyor is essential.

Make an appointment with Council planning dept to see what they know and pick their brain on what can be done with and without permission

Builder BIL told me that the rules on PP for single storey extensions have been relaxed and that the size you can build without PP has gone from 3m to 6m (presumably full width of property, although I didn't ask). If he's right (I haven't checked), that's really a lot on a small property (my house is only 8m from front to back, so a 6m rear extension would increase the footprint by 75%).

I only have experience of scaffolders from having extensive renovation done in our property. All other trades who came on site were friendly, cheerful and worked well with each other. Our builder had built a team of trades he trusted to work to his standard and we had a happy site, which was commented on by many neighbours.
When it was time for the scaffolders to come in the mood changed on that day. There were no exchanges of the usual friendly banter with the scaffolders, other trades just avoided them and the builder seemed to have little say, despite being very much in charge normally as site manager. He even cautioned against offering tea! Scaffolders have the power as the build can’t progress without them. They also left the scaffold in place for weeks after it was needed.

The builders attitude would be very alarming to me and a sign of things to come. I would definitely let your neighbours know how concerned you are about their builders attitude and hence will need to be very cautious going forward. That will let them and their builder know that you are not a push over.

I wouldnt make any informal agreement with them or their builder with that attitude. I would be looking for a formal agreement assuming that it is even necessary for them to put scaffold on your land rather than just cheaper and easier for them). Do be aware though, as I said before, that party wall awards are very limited in scope. They dont cover all the building work, just very limited work within the party wall act. You may need a scaffold license which they should pay for (and you could agree when they were allowed to put the scaffolding on your land). Also, as others have suggested photograph your patio and surrounding areas, preferably with a digital camera with date recorded. Take pictures along your boundary, garden features that might get damaged parts of the house close to extension etc.

We had roof repairs done early 2020 and scaffolders were going to put supports in NDN's garden, I insisted they waited until I asked permission and they clearly thought I was being silly. You need to make it very clear if you don't give permission to both your NDN and the scaffolders

Tell him today you need a PWA and your own independent surveyor and you do not agree to scaffolding on your land.

Builders can lean over and do the brick work, our next door neighbour has had to do this simply as there wasn't enough gap between our house and there's to put scaffolding on the outside, so they have done it internally.
The finish is still good and that's with them having to do it through a small gap.
If there's nothing obstructing them on the other side there is no reason why the finish would also not be good doing it from inside out.
Other than them being crap builders or deliberately doing it crap.

And it won't be 6 weeks.. the building work might only take 6 weeks but the scaffolders move at their own pace and often leave scaffolding up till they need to take it down for the next job. Saves on storage.

Get a party wall agreement, with an end date for scaffolding to be removed and make good any damage

No way. We had building work twice in two houses and it's wrecks garden every time!!! Are they dragging materials round? Your patio will get filthy and muddy and are they going to put it right?

Any grass they walk On will be wrecked.

Our neighbours wanted to put scaffolding along the alleyway between our houses and have it lodged tightly against our exterior wall as a support, which meant we would've felt every vibration from the work. We weren't happy at all with that, so we checked with our Buildings Insurance and they said we wouldn't be covered so it gave us an out. You might want to check the same. But it's really okay to say no - a good scaffolder should be able to get round it.

@BigPaperBag Also what LakieLady said.

The extension your neighbouts are planning - has permission been sought, or is it being done under permitted development?
Have you seen any plans? How close to the boundary? Where will rain run off? Where will the eaves be overhanging? It should be over their property alone - and you need to be very cautious about what they are intending to do.

They have no right to use your property.

I would write to them formally, and refuse any use of your land unless you are fully informed of their plans - and then permission is not to be presumed.

Please seek legal and planning advice! Get yourself fully informed. I think you're going to need it.

@VanGoghsDog

My neighbors asked me two weeks ago, I said it was fine and they said they'd let me know the date, which they didn't. I just came down one morning and it was there and they had moved my bin into the middie of my drive (there were at least three other sensible places they could have politely moved it).

So I was a bit miffed.

More though, I asked them weeks ago if they were going to be serving a party wall notice and they said no, they weren't working on the party wall. But it's clear they are.
I've looked into the law on this and I have to say, the party wall agreement seems entirely pointless!

Some plaster has come off my wall inside so I'm going to tell them they have to pay for that to be made good. If they had a party wall agreement I might not have been able to do that. They would be able to use the agreement to show if they had not done work in that area. As it is, I've no idea if they've done in that area. What I do know is that they drill, hammer, saw and grind all day and some plaster has fallen off my wall.

Plaster falling off your wall is absolutely what a PWA covers. The way it works is that a party wall surveyor comes inside your property before the work commences and takes photos and makes a report of what condition it's in, then if any damage occurs you have prove it was a result of their work. So your neighbour could say that you damaged the wall yourself and it's not their problem and you've got no proof that it is.

Do get a PWA. He'll have to pay for it as it's him benefitting from the work.

I was stupid enough to allow my neighbours to put scaffolding up in my garden and they wrecked it and didn't put it right. I had cracked paving and mess everywhere. Caught one of their workmen peeing into bushes in my garden. I was picking roofing nails and debris out of my flowerbeds for years. And because I had the nerve to complain they didn't finish the wall on my side off properly: I was left with an unsightly block wall with rough mortar sticking out between the joints. When I complained about that they told me I'd need their permission if I wanted to paint it/ render it/ finish if off properly.

People who start out in a spirit of 'we're building an extension and we're going to put scaffolding up in your garden' will go on to take further liberties. You need to be firm. Take loads of photos and archive them, impose limits on the hours the workmen can be there (no weekends and evenings or Bank Holidays) and insist that they contract to clearing up and leaving your property as found.

The likelihood that all that scaffolding being dragged into your garden and erected on your patio will not wreck your garden and damage the patio is remote.

Are you on your own?

Your neighbour sounds like a bit of a bully so be very careful of allowing him to ride roughshod over you and your property.

@memberofthewedding

As advised by other posters, you need to take qualified legal opinion and look into this very carefully.

Something very similar happened to my cousin by marriage (some years ago) but he had all his ducks in line. My cousin is an accountant and tends to see the world in pounds and pence and be quick to spot a potential business opportunity.

Pushy new neighbour tells Clive (cousin) that he is having an extension built and that some of the scaffolding posts “will be going” in his (Clive’s) garden. Now Clive and his wife are very keen gardeners and have spent much time and money on designing their garden and employing a professional gardener.

He was taken aback by this arrogant attitude from a new bug in the area, but politely asked pushy to produce the plans and show where the “proposed” scaffolding poles were to go. Neighbor produces plans and they discuss the length of the build which was projected at 3 months. Unfortunately the proposed location of the scaffolding coincided with an area where there is a water feature, a seating area and nicely landscaped flower beds.

Clive tells neighbour that he will discuss the matter with his solicitor and get back to him with an estimate for “renting part of his garden” for the build plus other costs. Pushy is open mouthed at having a solicitor involved, and insists its simply a matter of “bunging a few quid” to account for a few holes in the ground. Surely you don’t need all this with a neighbour!

Clive now delivers his classic speech of which this is a summary:-

“Lets leave this neighbour business on one side. Im a business man and you’ve come to me with a business proposal so I mean to handle this is a proper and legal manner. This build is not for my benefit and I intend to protect the interests of myself and my family. As well as the cost of renting part of my land there are other considerations, such as:

This will spoil our use of the garden for the entire summer
It will restrict our privacy
The scaffolding poles may constitute a H&S danger to my grandchildren when they visit
My time and that of my wife are going to be involved in arranging access, liaising with tradespeople, etc
Damage to and restitution of my garden to its former condition
etc

I will need to ensure that your workpeople are a legitimate company, properly qualified to carry out the work with care and skill and fully insured to cover any potential damage to my property. That’s why I will be involving my solicitor, and any other required professional, for whose services you will be asked to pay out of your contingency fund for the build.

As I promised, Ill speak with him and get back to you.”

Clive gets back to pushy after an interval with a proposed estimate costing. However no more is ever heard of the build. Pushy eventually re-submits his plans and switches the extension to the other side of the property. However he meets with a similar response, because Clive has already pre-warned the other neighbour. Subsequently the property is put back on the market.

I'm a little bit in love with your cousin!