To think flats without a living room should be banned?

[rampacious]

I am helping DD look at flats in central London. The amount of times a flat looks promising, but then it turns out that the sitting room is one of the bedrooms. Some of these flats have tiny kitchens, with no table et cetera. So the only place that people have to eat would be at their desk, on the loo, or sat on their beds.

Does anyone else think that flats should be banned from being advertised as a two bed flat, when really it is a one bed with the living room 'converted' into a bedroom. Quite a few of these are not even significantly cheaper either.

@hapagirl

I think I know what you mean OP. I’m in Edinburgh where houses and flats are converted into HMO and some LLs use the living room as a bedroom to get maximum return. I’ve seen some that even convert what would have been the kitchen into a bedroom and put the kitchen into a large cupboard. It’s pretty poor practice and greedy. I agree with you. I don’t know why it’s not considered overcrowding.

Ah the classic Morningside/Marchmont bedroom wedge @hapagirl. Bonus points if you can also subdivide any of the large bedrooms or livingroom to make multiples.

I once saw a flat listed in Morningside. Originally a classic 2 bedroom, livingroom, decent kitchen, box room. About 85sqm.

They'd sub divided the livingroom and the biggest bedroom, turning each in to two bedrooms 5-6ft wide but about 18ft long, and they'd taken a couple of feet from the original kitchen and added it to the boxroom making a windowless living/kitchen. Original kitchen became another bedroom (with boiler, natch) so you now had a 5 bedroom, 85sqm flat.

Loads of student houses dont have a sitting room. You get used to it.

Don’t know why people are saying it’s what student lets are always like so it’s ok. First of all students have somewhere else they can go hang out for free - the students union, so they can use that effectively as a living room outside the house. It’s really difficult to find places you can go to as an adult without being obliged to spend money.
Secondly, students aren’t normally in their housing all year round or for more than a couple of years so it can be more easily tolerated for that shorter period of time.
Living in a flatshare where you just have your small room and a small kitchen and nowhere to socialise is shit in long-term lets. OP didn’t even say her DD was a student - I had to live like this when I was working for a big 4 accountant! I work in the civil service now and know colleagues who live in housing like this as well. Needless to say, lockdown has been particularly shit for them.

Absolutely there should be standards. I'm a landlord with several properties. I'm not in business to offer accommodation that's detrimental to their mental health, anymore than I'd want to serve chlorinated chicken if l ran a restaurant. Many areas do have quite rigid HMO space standards and these are there to prevent overcrowding and endure there are adequate communal areas.
We need regulation in the sector to prevent greedy landlords from exploiting the lack of housing.

Yes, HMOs ...houses of multiple occupation, if people do t know are subject to space standards. A room for 1 or a room for 2 have to meet minimum floor space standards.

In the end though, the rental market is one of demand and supply. In some areas, a property offering a big bedroom and a living room and a kitchen will be really expensive and not all can afford it. There are kften queues to buy or rent those tiny properties without living rooms because they are more affordable. Unless we are going to get into the government legislating over maximum rents, there will always be a place for cheaper properties. And these days here are rules and regulations for rental such as having gas certificate, electrical cert, energy efficiency minimum standards. Only HMOs have space standards for bedrooms and we know lots of 3 bed houses have a tiny 3rd bedroom. It might be fine for a child in a house with space to play elsewhere, but wouldn't be great for an adult using it as a bedsit in a house without a living room....but presumably they will know that when they rent it.

Regarding viewing properties and not knowing if there is a living room or room sizes, it's always possibly to ask for that info before visiting. I agree it would help if room sizes were shown as standard or floor plans included. With HMOs, you don't have access to all of the house anyway, so the key thing is the room you will have and any communal areas. More and more info is available online, in a way it never was before the Internet,mbut it's not perfect. Landlords providing more info often find they get more interest, but it is also up to potential tenants to ask for info if they want it and it's not there.

There are also minimum standards for bedroom sizes in new builds too.

Properties built as family homes with smaller bedrooms for children were never really designed for multiple adults living independently and the house being multiple bedsits. But that is what lots have become. It's one reason why living rooms have been made into bedrooms, because the smallest bedroom isn't suitable to be a bedsit as its too small.

This doesn't just happen in London, I'm in the north and none of the houseshares I've seen have had a living room. HMOs are generally really shit and depressing.

Yes, HMOs are the cheapest end of the rental market. You pay less because you share communal facilities and often don't get to choose who you live with

Some specialise in housing benefit tenants and some in workers and professionals. The prices can vary significantly and the standards too.

Often, for an HMO to be profitable, it needs to have 5+ bedrooms. Then you're often looking at older properties which have been converted to add extra bathrooms or ensuites or sometimes an extra kitchen. They aren't great usually. But the price is often significantly lower than either renting on your own or flat sharing a whole property, as the rent includes bills. The reality, is that it's what lots of people can afford.

In my experience a living room in a shared house would be used by a flatmates friends and family from around the world .
The absolute worst living situation was 2 sets of bunkbeds in a single room with a fridge and a microwave. My New Zealander Bf lived there with his fellow backpacker mates and there were about 8 other rooms like this sharing 2 bathrooms in Wilesden.
They paid a fortune but they had a blast.

I think it kind of started out as a tenant-led thing, as in 3 people would agree to rent an unfurnished 2-bed flat and use the lounge as a bedroom to save money; it wouldn't surprise me if some LLs are starting with no lounge as a basis and charging more

I let the my first home years ago when I moved in with now-DH while he worked outside Londonon and a lot of sharers looking to rent I realised had more people than there were bedrooms (and I'm not talking couples), so they were obviously looking for someone to sleep in the lounge. But the house was open-plan downstairs and after a few viewings I changed my listing to clearly state it wasn't suitable for anyone looking to use the lounge as a bedroom.

They should do as they do on the continent for all sale and rental properties; the inside space in square metres as well as the total plot size in square metres. None of this number of bedrooms nonsense.

I once knew of a house share in south London. It was a three bedroom semi originally (two decent doubles, a tiny single (room for bed but no wardrobe), dining room, living room, kitchen and garage in the garden).

That house housed 9 adults in 6 bedrooms (dodgy attic conversion that did not have planning, living room used as a bedroom) and one bed in a shed (the illegally converted garage which was using the wifi of the house). Even though the landlady was raking it in, at I estimated at the time, twice the rent she could have got renting to a family, when the ancient cooker broke she refused to replace it with anything other than a cheap airfryer! The cheek!

Not the point of the thread but I had a great time living in a “two bed” flat in London with a friend years ago (2 bedrooms, a small kitchen and a bathroom). We were out all the time having fun not lounging around in a lounge. Once your DD is there a while she’ll work out where she wants to live that’s cheaper.

Floor plan?

@toffeebutterpopcorn

You're not from round these 'ere parts are you?

I've lived here donkeys years and still can't get over people living in £££££££ properties and still eating in their living room (I'm from the sticks).

Yup... South West London £1,000,000 a two up two down 1840's Cottage. ..and that's cheap! {Relative's house}

Why you mean is, can’t afford a flat. What’s being advertised is what you can afford. Don’t like it, pay more.

I shared a flat in central London with 2 friends. They had a bedroom each and I had the living room which was really the lounge. It meant we could afford it. It worked ok because the kitchen was big and had a small table and 1 sofa in it.

However, I would not think it's suitable for the lounge to be used as a bedroom if the kitchen is literally only a kitchen with no table or chairs and no communial space.

*I had the living room which was really the lounge.
I meant I had a bedroom which was the lounge.

Happens a lot with student flats. However, often the kitchen is big enough to have a table or has a dining room attached.

When I was a university student, I shared a flat with 5 other students (strangers). We had our own room with en-suite, but shared a kitchen. No living area.

These are called studios where I’m from. But I agree they should be advertised as what they are to stop wasting people’s time.

Studio flats can be nice and provide a separate space for eating if they are well planned. The eating space does not need to be in a separate room. My daughter has just done a wonderful organisation of an approx 300 square feet studio and it looks amazing!

If you want a living room ask if there is one before you rock up to see it. I have rented for many years and you rule out before viewing if it doesnt have your basic criteria.

I got that. The flat was advertised as a two-bedder but one of the bedrooms was used as a sitting room. Not a big deal in my opinion and usually obvious from the floor plan and photographs if advertised somewhere like Rightmove.

Why does a girl on her own need two bedrooms anyway? I hadn't thought of that before, or perhaps I am misunderstanding. It sounds as though a lot of misunderstanding was created by that advertisement. However there is generally more than one flat to look at, just move on to the next one.

The important thing is for the op's daughter to feel comfortable in her accommodation. It's such a big step to strike out on your own. When I was growing up, all I wanted was to leave home and have a place to myself. When I did I was scared of every noise and shadow, couldn't sleep! I 'got there' eventually but it took time to adjust.

Who knows why she wants two bedrooms and a lounge, the OP didn't say. Maybe she has a child, or a roommate.

The point is she has been looking for something and none of the places have been suitable, because the listings are unclear. I'm not sure why you assume there will be a floorplan.

Yep the housing situation and quality in the UK is pretty shocking. I think there needs to be more enforced regulation as some landlords (realise not all) are unscrupulous. So many substandard lettings - it really makes my blood boil. That said - if this letting is clean, dry, warm and living with decent people it may be ok even without a living room.

I had several flats in London SW during the 70s, and each one had a lounge. Bedsits were advertised as such. Blimey!