To think that the EU have done more to endorse Brexit in the last 2 weeks than the UK managed in nearly 5 years

[Butterflyfluff]

I’ll start by saying I’ve never thought Brexit was in the long term interest of the UK and still don’t

But dear God, the EU’s behaviour over vaccinations and, in particular, the blatant prejudice around the Astra Zeneca vaccine has done more to endorse the UK leaving than anything that has been said in the UK before, during and after the vote

I was a staunch remainer but I agree, I'm certainly not so staunch now.

@Kendodd

One thing that's quite eye opening about this thread, although not in the least surprising to me, is the number of remain voters willing to criticise the EU and even rethink Brexit. In all the years post Brexit leave voters are absolutely welded to Brexit there is NOTHING that will cause them even a moment's reflection. If this situation was reversed and we were way behind the EU on vaccines and this was precisely BECAUSE of Brexit I would have been amazed if a single Leave voter had moved one inch.

I find this really quite sad

So you’re basically saying people can’t revise their opinions in line with events that unfold?

Whilst simultaneously slagging off Leavers based on a hypothetical situation which didn’t come to pass - far from it - which is the whole point here!

It seems the die hard Remainers really have disappeared down their rabbit hole

Not all the AZ vaccines used in the UK are made in the UK. Those which are, are reliant on large supply chains that are from outside the UK.

A lot quieter on mumsnet from the pro remainders, definitely. They can’t really argue on this issue; facts are facts. I’m so proud of our country that we’ve managed the vaccine roll out so well, something which we couldn’t have done under the shackles of the EU.

There's been an analogy stuck in my head ever since I saw it on the BBC when May was about to enact article 50, that the EU is an abusive partner and the UK is the victim desperately trying to get out of the relationship. Being told they shouldn't leave, that they can't leave, that they are useless on their own and every trick in the book being used to convince them they are hopeless and unable to leave.

Now they've left the relationship, the abusive partner is still trying to trash them, trying to exert influence over them, trying to hurt them. Partly to hurt their ex, partly to maintain control over their current partner.

The abuser is unable to see that they are doing anything wrong of course. It's the victim's fault.

Yanbu it’s made me rethink (I voted remain)

I voted remain

I haven’t changed my mind

loadsoftrouble If the vaccine situation was reversed, we would fully expect the EU to prioritise their own people and offer what was left to the UK if wish. Brexiteers would not be surprised at all by this. I am sure the EU would have loved the opportunity to crow about its superior powers of procurement. Shame it didn't work out that way!

You know as well as I do that the vaccine contracts have absolutely nothing to do with the nations' themselves. The private businesses operate within the rule of law outside of state control. The EU is not China losads and should not even be considering requisitioning factories that are being run perfectly well fulfilling their contractual obligations within the global trade regulations that have been in place and adhered to all over the world.

You can't seriously feel comfortable with the EU threatening such things, knowing the consequences will be enormous, for the EU more than anyone else. The damage and harm they are causing themselves is shocking to see from London.

Your vaccine predicament is due to the commission's incompetence, it has nothing to do with the UK!

Not all the AZ vaccines used in the UK are made in the UK. Those which are, are reliant on large supply chains that are from outside the UK.

That's not what PP said though. They said AZ vaccines were not manufactured in the UK. Which is incorrect

@MarshaBradyo

Yanbu it’s made me rethink (I voted remain)

Not me because i view the interests of the UK over many years and not on a single once in a century event. The EU handled this extremely badly BUT then again, i believe the UKs attitude to vaccine hoarding is morally very wrong - 400m ordered and zero action to see any go to COVAX or any countries facing a 3rd caused caused by a variant our govt helped propagate due to allowing CV to run freely.

@Butterflyfluff

Which bit in particular of Listening quietly's list was incorrect? Where are the syringe and vial manufacturers in the UK? One's that also don't have a supply chain for their products from outside the Uk.

The bits that said there were no vaccines made in the UK and the bits that implied the development was entirely international

It is true that not all vaccines used in the UK are manufactured in the UK. Even those manufactured in UK sites are dependent on sourcing materials from outside the UK.

Still wondering about the UK manufacturers of syringes and vials. I suspect many if not most are imported. If not, even if manufactured in the UK, the finished product is likely to be dependent on the import of components and raw materials from supply chains outside the UK.

Listening also correctly stated the development team was International. People from different nations. Listening did not state that it only comprised people from different nations outside the UK.
In fact the first batches of the vaccine for clinical trials was manufactured in Italy.

I agree that vaccine national has huge repercussions for us all. I wonder if Johnson has asked Biden to stop his export ban on materials which are needed by the Serum Institute of India for the manufacture of vaccines for UK citizens?

I really pity countries like Italy & Spain - doubly hit by both the slowness of the vaccines and the heavy reliance of their economy on tourism!
Maybe they’ll consider leaving the EU of their own accord seeing the shambles it’s in?
EU should never have expanded to include tons of countries in difference economic and development stages... the above mentioned two are worse than some third world countries

Jasjas what do you mean by hoarding?

Aren’t we using everything we’ve got and some in EU are not with stockpiles?

This seems a bit of a stretch compared to the reality of who has extra stock

I think it a bit blindsided to always see YK in the light you do

@Flywheel

Pfizer supplies won't be impacted. It's all about AZ. They screwed over eu, only supplying 1/3 of the contracted doses and refused to supply from the UK due to the contract. The big fuss now is the Netherlands plant. UK want these supplies too, which would not be unreasonable if AZ were honouring the EU contract, but they are not. Forget about best efforts, they are not even making reasonable efforts, when they signed the UK contract the next day, effectively taking the two UK plants off the table which are listed in the contract. And now wanting to ship even more vaccines out of Europe. I don't think it's unreasonable for he EU to keep vaccines, which they have contacted and paid for, in Europe. And as for AZ sitting in fridges unused, this is not an EU wide issue. Many countries are administering the vaccines as soon as they get them.

This ^

Also AZ has a manufacturing plant in the Rep of Ireland and has been asked to begin production there but as I understand the situation, they have refused as there is apparently capacity in their other plants to manufacture the vaccine so they don't want to start production in Ireland. (this is my understanding of the current state of play as of today).
At this point I'd be happy to get any vaccine if it could mean that 'normal services has resumed' in relation to the day to day things that we used to be able to do, like going for an after work drink in the local or meeting up with family for a meal somewhere.

The key message now is that none of us is safe until we're all safe. I just want whoever is running the show to get their finger out and ramp up vaccinations.
I mean if Biden could manage to live up to his election commitment of 100m vaccinated in the first 100 days of his administration (and he's managed it within the first 60), it really shouldn't be taking the rest of us this long to get our collective acts together!

Also want to say - I like the idea of the EU but ONLY w.r.t trade. Not all this joint decision making in every single thing.
Why don’t they just agree to have separate mégotions which is what is happening anyway... we are not the US which is what the EU aspires to. Diffe nfe puntries each with our own histories and culture

If the EU was the US, they would already have implemented what is effectively an export ban like the US has.

Biden is very much 'America First' on this, even down to the materials used.

@Cailleach1

If the EU was the US, they would already have implemented what is effectively an export ban like the US has.

Biden is very much 'America First' on this, even down to the materials used.

What is the instrument for the US ban?

Ie is it written into the private contracts or something else

"I'm alright Jack" What will happen if Jack's house burns down? I think his neighbours remember his selfishness 🤔

Why is the US restricting supplies?
President Biden has asked his administration to identify potential shortfalls in materials required for vaccine production.
He has invoked the Defense Production Act (DPA), legislation from the 1950s which gives the US president powers to mobilise the domestic economy in response to emergencies.
The DPA allows the US to restrict the export of products which might be needed for domestic manufacturing.
The Biden administration said it would use the act to increase the list of items that US vaccine makers would get priority access to, such as special pumps and filtration units.

www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-55571793

I think the bigger point is that this is a clash of ideas and exactly why Britain gains advantage by leaving.

The EU is dedicated to the precautionary principle, it’s institutional commitments, and it’s promotion of certain ideas.

You can see a huge difference in outcome because the British were pragmatic. They also took greater risks than the EU.

That has paid off in spades.

The EU response has been edifying- institutionally, it has not been pragmatic. Instead at every point it has prized its own institutions and procedure over actual need.

Johnson cannot take credit - he has some great people, but in the end, this pragmatism shown by Britain has paid off.

Anyone who ever negotiated with the EU knows that place their ideology over nearly everything else. They do not like countries doing their own thing, and they do not want outliers like Britain.

People need to put the EU 'export ban' in perspective. They are not talking about randomly stopping private companies shipping goods which have been bought and paid for. They are specifically talking about blocking a company (AZ) from shipping goods out of Europe, which they have already bought and paid for. UK are not in the right here morally, taking vaccines from vulnerable Europeans to vaccinate their young and healthy. It is also really questionable if they are correct legally. EU insist they are not breaking any contracts. A lengthy court case may sort it out, but for now I don't think the EU are wrong to stand their ground.

emerald As far as I can Jack's neighbours house is currently burning down, and they have the extinguishers sat right there and are refusing to use them! I don't think we can expect Jack to put his life at risk to save his neighbours, when they clearly don't want to be saved.

I am alright Jack, only applies if you are not donating huge sums to Covax. The UK has raised $1 billion for the coronavirus COVAX Advance Market Commitment (AMC) through match-funding other donors, which combined with the £548 million of UK aid pledged will help distribute one billion doses of coronavirus vaccines to 92 developing countries this year. Versus the pitiful 500 million donated by the WHOLE of the EU.

I think Jack is doing more than enough thanks.

Adar Poonawalla, the chief executive officer of the Serum Institute of India —which is licensed to produce hundreds of millions of Covid-19 vaccines from AstraZeneca NSE 1.90 % and Novavax — told a World Bank panel on Thursday that a US law blocking the export of certain key items, including bags and filters, will likely cause serious bottlenecks.

Those supply disruption concerns have arisen after the Biden administration announced plans to use the Defense Production Act to boost supplies needed to make Pfizer’s vaccines. Last year, Pfizer scaled back its production targets after the US drugmaker ran into difficulties securing all the materials it needs to produce the vaccines at a large scale, a reminder that the world is depending on mass manufacturing at an unprecedented speed and scale to end the pandemic.

“This is one thing that would need some discussion with the Biden administration to explain to them there’s enough to go around,” Poonawalla said. “We’re talking about having free global access to vaccines but if we can’t get the raw materials out of the US — that’s going to be a serious limiting factor.”

Even under ideal conditions, getting injections into the arms of 7.8 billion people would test the delicate choreography of the world’s supply chains in ways unseen in peacetime. That’s going to be a serious limiting factor.”

economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/healthcare/adar-poonawalla-who-warn-of-delays-as-us-prioritises-pfizer/articleshow/81359554.cms?from=mdr

fly You clearly have no idea about contractual law in the EU.

You can't force any private company to hand over their supplies, you can't requisition factories and take them over at will. VDL has unearthed a very old article used in the 1970s, it is unheard of in modern times to even consider this action.

You seem to misunderstand the issues. That is precisely what Italy/EU have done to Australia, they have seized vaccines bought and paid for at the ports. That is precisely what they are doing. Taking vaccines (stealing basically)

Your post reminds of the great quote: If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation.

The supply chain involves more than the chemical materials, the above article mentions bags and filters.

Also the glass vials mentioned by ListeningQuietly.

Soumya Swaminathan from the WHO added that there were shortfalls of vials, glass, plastic and stoppers required by those companies.

economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/healthcare/adar-poonawalla-who-warn-of-delays-as-us-prioritises-pfizer/articleshow/81359554.cms?from=mdr