Disgusted By Dentists Behaviour!!!

[Windchangeface]

We moved home week before the pandemic and then non of the dentists were taking on patients.

This made me very nervous, I kept an eye out to jump as soon as they opened up.

Well...as of a few weeks ago 3/5 practises within a 15 mile radius of us put up notices on their websites ‘taking on new patients’ great I rang to register me, DH and small DS. But oh no, they aren’t taking on any NHS patients only private or Denplan! (Would cost us a minimum of £50 per month and I’m currently pregnant so should be free anyway). The receptionists at all 3 massively tried to sell me Denplan and actually made me feel like a total sponge for asking about NHS.

‘Most families prefer Denplan’ erm sorry Shannon but I highly doubt ‘most’ families prefer to spend £50+ per month on something that should be £20 a visit for them and free for their kids!

One of the receptionists even told me (in a very snooty tone) ‘no we aren’t taking NHS patients we’ve got enough of those) another stated ‘we’ve met our quota for NHS so are only taking paying patients’.

Given DH is a Dr who spends all day looking after hospital patients free of charge I’m at a loss to understand why dentists feel they’re above the NHS.

Horrible, elitist attitude excluding people who can’t afford to pay from adequate healthcare and forcing those who can to pay high premiums they shouldn’t have to!

Just to add... The same will happen for the health service if the NHS goes the same way.

@Whenthesunshines
Look up IOTN- Index of orthodontic treatment need. Only 4 and 5 qualify for nhs treatment.
www.bos.org.uk/BOS-Homepage/Orthodontics-for-Children-Teens/Fact-File-FAQ/What-Is-The-IOTN

Alfaix
Thanks! The dentist did explain this to us but so many do get braces and their teeth looked fine before (I work at school so see loads of smiles! 🤣) Some definitely need work admittedly! One lad had two full sets of teeth top and bottom! Never seen anything like it!!

@Whenthesunshines

Just to add... The same will happen for the health service if the NHS goes the same way.

Well yes, especially as people seem so accepting of it. Boris will do his sad face and say “alas alack we can’t afford it” and his devoted fans will nod wisely and agree.

It is shocking. I am a poor person (exempt any costs) and paying for dentistry. My choice is to pay privately or not go to the dentist.

This happened to me lat week, and nobody believed me!

Tried to get my DD 21 months registered at my practice, only to be told, they aren't taking NHS patients anymore and I'd have to pay for each appointment, thats 'just the way it is now'.

We all go to this practice, I've been with them for over 40 years, it doesn't make any sense to find anywhere else just for her.

Let your MP know. Complain. It's not strange to expect NHS treatment to be available.

I think there is a misconception here re fees charged and the income dentists receive. The British dental association’s figures show the average dentists income is 69k. A good income but given they spend years training to do what they do, on a par with doctors etc. The costs of running surgeries are enormous - including dental nurse costs, insurances and very strict infection procedures (which were also strict before Covid). What you pay is not what they receive. My DH is a fully private dentist - he stopped doing nhs work (after years of doing it) when we worked out in terms of hourly running costs it actually cost us money to deliver it - so he would actually be paying to perform treatment. Dentistry has one of highest suicide rates as a profession and people are leaving in droves. Brexit has also created a shortage. We have actively discouraged our children from entering into the profession and many we know are doing the same. It isn’t funded in the same way as the medical side of the nhs - so it is not comparable.
Dentists are virtually all self employed so all those mixed and private (which make up the majority of dentists - there are very few full nhs practices left) were in the excluded 3 million from help and they have been hit harder than most with Covid from a professional perspective. Not expecting anyone to care about that, but you are now seeing the end result of such treatment - and as it affects the general public that’s when people mind. Bearing in mind that the taxes don’t pay for nhs dentistry for all, most people pay their cleaner more than they pay in routine dental treatment. But with no disrespect to cleaners - I can’t do my own dentistry.

I should add that if they offered dentists the same deal as GPs get - I think the dental
profession would be mainly nhs with the odd bit of private. But they don’t. Added to the fact lots of dentists are actually motivated to use the very best equipment/material for the best result (which I doubt would be available on the nhs even in that utopia state) and the current state of dentistry in the uk is what you get.

I think it's a disgrace that NHS dentistry seems to be fading out, if this thread is anything to go by. Neglected teeth can cause issues for people's general health and care needs to be prioritised just as much for teeth as for other parts of the body.

Maybe it's a postcode lottery as we havent experienced these problems with finding a dentist so far. We've always had an NHS dentist. When we moved to a different part of the country 14 years ago we joined a NHS dentist 2 minutes walk from our house. When that dentist closed down we found another one very easily. That was maybe 3 years ago.

Forgot to say, our current dentist group is part private and part NHS. We have sometimes paid extra to the hygienist for a more thorough clean than the NHS dentist would provide. I guess that's a sign of things to come.

We were lucky our dentist took us all as NHS patients about 5 years ago. I was there the other day and overheard the receptionist tell someone they aren't taking any new patients atm. Covid has meant they have a huge backlog in appointments and are struggling to catch up.

Given DH is a Dr who spends all day looking after hospital patients free of charge I’m at a loss to understand why dentists feel they’re above the NHS.

This would only be analogous if your DH also paid rent for the hospital rooms/clinic/surgical equipment and paid for the X-ray services and clinic staff.

@nolongersurprised

Given DH is a Dr who spends all day looking after hospital patients free of charge I’m at a loss to understand why dentists feel they’re above the NHS.

This would only be analogous if your DH also paid rent for the hospital rooms/clinic/surgical equipment and paid for the X-ray services and clinic staff.

And also if her husband started treating people when there wasn't a bed, just sneaked someone in while a patient was in the day room.

The NHS is responsible for the system, the dentist can't take on patients when he has already filled his quota anymore than her husband can accept more patients when the ward/surgical list is full.

anymore than her husband can accept more patients when the ward / surgical list is full.

Ahem... this actually does happen. Extra beds/ trollies are shoved into any available space. My dh’s Endoscopy list (and his clinics) are regularly overbooked. He had a logistical nightmare the other day when he discovered the Endoscopy recovery trollies were full of inpatients, with an over booked Endoscopy list to perform!

@MissyB1, the difference for dentists providing NHS treatments is that they don't get paid if they go above the quota (I guess the equivalent would be working extra hours - I don't know if doctors get paid a set salary or an hourly rate), and there are other issues if you exceed the quota. Add to that the fact dentists run their own businesses and need to pay staffing costs, rent, PPE personally etc etc and you can't compare the same situations.
On the flip side, as at the moment, when lots are cancelling due to covid issues, dentists don't get paid unless they see the patient. I'm assuming that's not the case for doctors in the NHS.
It's comparing apples and oranges. I have the greatest of respect for doctors working in the NHS and their challenges. it would be nice if they could acknowledge that due to the government's choices as to how they organise dentistry, dentists face different financial issues.

Ahem... this actually does happen. Extra beds/ trollies are shoved into any available space. My dh’s Endoscopy list (and his clinics) are regularly overbooked. He had a logistical nightmare the other day when he discovered the Endoscopy recovery trollies were full of inpatients, with an over booked Endoscopy list to perform!

The cost for each overbooked patient isn’t docked from your dh’s salary though is it? Which is basically what would happen to dentists as they receive a budget for NHS treatment- anything over that they would pay out of their own pockets.

This thread had been helpful for me in understanding the way dentistry is (not) funded. We should be angry with the government not individual dentists who have to make a living.
If they didn't have some commitment to the NHS and it was all about the money they'd all go 100% private so those who are still taking NHS patients at all should be applauded.

I disagree with people in this thread who think that if you can pay you should. That isn't the logic applied to private medicine or private education so why should it apply to dentistry? Everyone should have a right to a basic service on the NHS and they can choose to pay privately if they want a better one or extras just like with private medicine. If dentistry is going to be means tested and not available to all then the government should announce that and make it a policy. Until then I am not going to feel bad about having an NHS dentist although I could afford to pay.

The main reason I don't want to pay is that I dislike privatised healthcare in general. I fear they will be all out for making a profit and trying to upsell me on stuff I don't want or need. The appearance of my teeth is not a big priority for me. I don't get this obsession with all children with slightly crooked teeth having braces these days. If I did want cosmetic stuff that the NHS doesn't provide then I would pay extra but I think basic check ups and functional stuff like fillings and extractions if required should be available to all on the NHS. I accept that isn't the case and the government don't fund it enough but that doesn't mean I feel happy about it.

I guess this will be what medicine is like when the Tory government succeed in abolishing the NHS. A basic means tested service for the worst off and everyone else in an insurance system like Denplan with the risk of escalating unaffordable payments if you do get sick. Costs overall will escalate as providers can charge more but the costs will be to individuals not to the taxpayer. It'll be OK if you are middle class you'll pay more and arguably get a better service but shit for poor and disabled people who will be restricted to a crap service as nearly all the best providers will be private.

Dentistry would obviously be a poor comparison to a salaried NHS hospital Dr who gets paid the same salary regardless of workload pretty much. It's apples and pears.

GPs would be a better comparison. They are self employed in private partnerships and have to employ their own staff, cover costs of premises, insurance etc but you don't get many private or mixed GP practices and GPs make a good living. I assume this is because of better payment terms. GPs get an amount per patient registered and I think they also get some extra money for specific devices eg vaccinations and an element of performance related pay. This is clearly enough that they don't need to make more money by going private. GPs do charge extra for some non NHS services like travel vaccines and insurance medicals but it's small print stuff as the NHS fee covers their other work so they don't rely on private income.

Dentistry should be more like that.

Oh I absolutely understand that NHS Dentistry is funded in a different way to Hospitals. But how did we allow this to happen is the question we should be asking, how was it sneaked in without a public outcry?! And for those who totally accept this (and defend it) what makes you think it will stop at Dentistry?

Oh I absolutely understand that NHS Dentistry is funded in a different way to Hospitals. But how did we allow this to happen is the question we should be asking, how was it sneaked in without a public outcry?! And for those who totally accept this (and defend it) what makes you think it will stop at Dentistry?

It hasn’t. NHS medical care has been slowly privatised over the last 20+ years. When I worked there they were running courses to encourage staff to form “social enterprises”- so basically staff on a ward would be shown how to set themselves up as a private not for profit then contract themselves back to their wards.

Nhs is largely now moving toward a central budget that contracts private companies to carry out its duties. See GP’s. Private businesses that tender for contracts. Only GP’s managed to negotiate a very favourable position so while they are privately employed, they retained their NHS pensions etc. Best of both worlds for them.

Nothing has changed with GPs they have always been private businesses, absolutely nothing has changed there. Staff employed by GPs are often not employed on the same t&cs as other NHS staff. They have access to the NHS pension scheme but so do a number of staff groups and non NHS employers which are affiliated with health care.

@Covoidofallhumanity yes a GP surgery is in many ways a better comparison. The differences as I understand it are that:
1)GPs are paid better per patient on their books to start with
2) there is no requirement for them to actually see the patient to get paid - they get the payments for those on their books regardless
3) dentists actually do treatment most of the time which is different to a lot of issues at the GP, which takes time to do
4) GPs actually get their premises paid for under the Premises Payment, and premises are one of the big costs for dentists
5) the dental equipment dentists need to have - x ray machines, OPGs ,dental chairs, specific air conditioning/filtration etc all are expensive and fully funded by the dentist only - whereas GPs need much less expensive equipment.

6)cross infection - how much cleaning goes on in between patients - even in normal times - in a GPs room. How many instruments does a GP need to sterilize on a per patient basis?
Add to that the dentists must have a nurse with them at all times under the rules (another salary per dentist to pay) and you can see how it works differently sadly. There's a myriad of other expenses that GPs don't have - and some similarities in that the CQC inspects them, they both need practice managers, receptionists etc but there are huge financial differences.
The reason its ended up this way is partly due to the different union strength and partly due to the fact dentistry is not seen as a priority for either the government or the public. The dental union had to fight to get dentists even recognised as key workers - so that tells you all you need to know.

I don’t think dentistry is comparable to a GP service in breadth of practice. Whilst dentistry is important it is only one very small and specialist area, perhaps more comparable to optometry. Which is also largely a private service.

Don’t be pissy with the dentists, be angry with the government for the pittance they get for providing NHS treatment. They can’t afford to do that for all patients, that’s the reality. Would you DH be happy working for minimum wage or less once he qualifies?