Disgusted By Dentists Behaviour!!!

[Windchangeface]

We moved home week before the pandemic and then non of the dentists were taking on patients.

This made me very nervous, I kept an eye out to jump as soon as they opened up.

Well...as of a few weeks ago 3/5 practises within a 15 mile radius of us put up notices on their websites ‘taking on new patients’ great I rang to register me, DH and small DS. But oh no, they aren’t taking on any NHS patients only private or Denplan! (Would cost us a minimum of £50 per month and I’m currently pregnant so should be free anyway). The receptionists at all 3 massively tried to sell me Denplan and actually made me feel like a total sponge for asking about NHS.

‘Most families prefer Denplan’ erm sorry Shannon but I highly doubt ‘most’ families prefer to spend £50+ per month on something that should be £20 a visit for them and free for their kids!

One of the receptionists even told me (in a very snooty tone) ‘no we aren’t taking NHS patients we’ve got enough of those) another stated ‘we’ve met our quota for NHS so are only taking paying patients’.

Given DH is a Dr who spends all day looking after hospital patients free of charge I’m at a loss to understand why dentists feel they’re above the NHS.

Horrible, elitist attitude excluding people who can’t afford to pay from adequate healthcare and forcing those who can to pay high premiums they shouldn’t have to!

@HeyDemonsItsYaGirl

Because we as a nation cannot afford to subside the amount of services we are, quite simply.

Yes, we can. But the majority of voters prefer a system where they pay lower tax to get inadequate services, leaving the poorest and most vulnerable to suffer.

We really can't.

I have never voted tory in my life, but at the time I think Labour go OTT on the things they reckon they can provide when the nation is already struggling and people are going without the neccessary health care and can not even get a NHS dentist. Nevermind the vast amount of other problems related to poverty.

Our system can't afford for people to take the piss, and unfortunately a lot of people. A lot of people also would never dream of it. There's a big problem and it's getting worse.

The amount you pay for denplan depends on the grade your dentist gives based on the condition of your teeth. Did you get assess? £50 seems steep for two adults. Even if it's private and you're on denplan your kids will still be free

www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/dentists/how-to-find-an-nhs-dentist/

I know this link has been given upthread, but just to emphasise this part:

If after contacting several dental surgeries you still cannot find a dentist accepting NHS patients, call NHS England's Customer Contact Centre on 0300 311 2233.

NHS England commissions dental services in England and is required to meet the needs of their local population for both urgent and routine dental care.

There are further routes to follow up suggested if the above fails.

This whole thread is Tory brain worms writ large - yes, the NHS dentist system has been screwed for decades, no, NHS dental treatment is not normally free (only would be free for OP because she's pregnant), so idk why you think OP is some kind of scrounger for wanting access to the service everyone is theoretically entitled to and which everyone is still paying for through tax.

@SausageBeanz Yes you do sound like a tory!

Look, we used to get these services for free but we've voted not too & its not just the tories, Labour were in power for over a decade and dental care was a disaster then, my DD is in her 20s now but we've never been able to get her a NHS dentist.

Yes people should take care of themselves but kids cannot get care, who is showing them how to brush their teeth or limits their sugary drinks?

Dental care in adults can show up oral cancers but this is now being missed.

If we can afford an extra 40 trident missiles, 2 aircraft carriers plus HS2, why can't we have affordable & available dental care?

@pucelleauxblanchesmains

This whole thread is Tory brain worms writ large - yes, the NHS dentist system has been screwed for decades, no, NHS dental treatment is not normally free (only would be free for OP because she's pregnant), so idk why you think OP is some kind of scrounger for wanting access to the service everyone is theoretically entitled to and which everyone is still paying for through tax.

I don't think the OP is a scrounger.

How could I possibly know?

All I know about her is that she is finding it hard to access a NHS dentist when she is technically entitled one. I have no knowledge (nor interest) in knowing whether she can afford a private plan or not.

She asked a question about it and I answered. That's it really. It's no secret the systems have been ripped the piss out of for a long time - this does of course lead to shortages of appropriate services to those whom really need it, which could include the OP (it also could not, but no-one here is going to know that).

I've witnessed many folk ripping the system. Particularly before things got a bit heavy handed on it. I also know the Tory's fucked things up and caused a hell of a lot of poverty. I don't think either party is good for the UK to be honest.

I've also witnessed a lot of people suffer without the support they desperately need.

The UK has a massive problem. And it's unsustainable in it's current state.

Just to add though,

'which everyone is still paying for through tax'

No, they're really not. Massive companies getting away with tax avoidance, a lot of average joe also not paying into the system. Until it's sorted, it's not going to get any better. It all makes a difference, as people are seeing.

The situation with dentistry is highly alarming 😬
Yes we should all take better care of our teeth and our health but it's not quite that simple and there will always be an element of moral hazard where care is free all subsidized.
I think we should take steps to mitigate the moral hazard whilst acknowledging that free and accessible healthcare is just as important to modern life as free education, free access to emergency services etc

"Because we live in a society in which so many people won't take personal responsibility for their own dental care to pay £50 per month (if they can afford it) because they prefer to pay £20 per visit and for all of their brood to receive free dental care. " Well this does imply she's somehow illegitimately playing the system rather than wanting treatment everyone should be entitled to.

[quote jasjas1973]@SausageBeanz Yes you do sound like a tory!

Look, we used to get these services for free but we've voted not too & its not just the tories, Labour were in power for over a decade and dental care was a disaster then, my DD is in her 20s now but we've never been able to get her a NHS dentist.

Yes people should take care of themselves but kids cannot get care, who is showing them how to brush their teeth or limits their sugary drinks?

Dental care in adults can show up oral cancers but this is now being missed.

If we can afford an extra 40 trident missiles, 2 aircraft carriers plus HS2, why can't we have affordable & available dental care?[/quote]
Probably because there is a budget for everything I would imagine - I thought that was common knowledge.

We can't continously cut budgets to pay for people and their entire families on an increasing level.

When I see people using foodbanks, children and adults living in poverty it makes me cross. People overusing support they don't need is absolutely a factor. Perhaps a labour government would choose to cut budgets to other sectors in order to increase funds to the NHS and dental services. And perhaps it'd work, perhaps we'd suffer in other ways. We'll never know though because we've not voted them in for a long time, and I don't think it's going to change in the immediate future.

Labour voter all my life by the way. Until the last election where free wifi was promised. We have more important basic needs of human beings not being met in this country to worry about bloody wifi.

And I still didn't vote tory.

People who suscribe to a more labour view can occasionally have opinions that services are being overused in the UK, you know.

Free prescriptions to everyone in Scotland. Why? Not everyone needs them. There could be a hell of a lot of money saved there going to people who need support more. I even asked if there was a way I could pay for my monthly prescriptions and was told NO. So I donate it instead. It's madness.

'When I see people using foodbanks, children and adults living in poverty it makes me cross.'

I should clarify this as it could be taken wrongly.

I mean it makes me cross that people are going through this. It's hideous, and deeply upsetting.

What annoys me is when you register as an NHS patient and they keep trying to do the hard sell for private services. My practice apparently couldn’t get me in for an NHS clean but they could if I paid privately to see the hygienist.

@DoggyDoolittle

If you phone your health authority they should be able to give you a list of local dentists who ARE taking NHS patients. Plenty round here don't, but I found a lovely one who I've been with for years now. As you say with small kids and being pregnant, you are 100% entitled to it, so don't feel guilty. Amazed at some of the attitudes on here!

@Windchangeface - have you tried doing as @DoggyDoolittle suggests? Maybe they will be able to find you a dentist who is taking on NHS patients.

I can see why dentists are more keen on taking on private/Denplan patients, but it does leave people like yourself in a very difficult situation. There are plenty of people who cannot afford the costs of a private dental scheme like Denplan, and NHS dentistry is supposed to ensure that all these people have access to dental health care.

I don't think the dentists are to blame though - I blame successive Governments, who have underfunded the NHS and NHS dentistry.

@Windchangeface
you said dentists are paid a wage like your DH except for a small number in community dentist or those working in a hospital like oral surgeons this is simply not true

I was a dentist in Scotland and always worked for NHS for 25 years less than 7% private which was mostly either tooth whitening or people wanting white fillings in back teeth ( I retired early)

normal high street dentists ( 90% of dentists) are self employed in the same way as plumbers car mechanics etc the only difference for NHS dentists is the get an NHS pension based on NHS earnings
like a car mechanic charges parts and labour parts is self explanatory but the labour part doesn't just cover his wage but the receptionist wage the rent or mortgage on his garage all his equipment the big stuff like ramps and the little stuff like lubricants and handwash to get oil off as well as utilities the cost of software for diagnostics

so a dentist has the parts bit ( the cost of actual materials and fees to make dentures and crowns) and the labour bit which covers dentists wage nurse and receptionist wages pensions etc ( unlike GP medical staff wages and premise costs are not included) as well as rent heat light PPE software and all the very expensive equipment and the huge amount of single use items ( from way way before covid go back to HIV AIDS)
in Scotland dentists on NHS are paid a feee per item this is weighted according to what they want done so pay is very poor for extractions and root canal
in England it works as others have said by UDA ( units of dental activity) you bid for them as a contract so say you have 3 dentists at a practice and you think you can do 4000 UDAs per year each so you bid for 12,000 the the local health board only agree to 8000
so once 8000 UDAs done in a financial year you don't ge tpaid for more so most dentists would try and say we will do about 700 a month or with 3 dentists 250ish each so any free time as they didn't get 12000 they use for private patients so once you have done your 8000 UDA there is no more money
it is like your DH was paid £3000 per hip replacement but only for 15 a year so however many people need hips he will only be paid £45,000 but if he does a 16th he must pay the staff for the 16th and all his tools and the actual hip replacement and a fee to use the operating theatre out of his 45,000 so instead of earning 45K for 15 hips he would be earning about 43K for 16 and if he did 20 hips he would be doing them for 35K , in that case he definitely would not do more than 15 however much patient 16 needed it, patient 16 would be first on list maybe for next financial year and so a waiting list would build up
on another note NHS dentistry funding has slowly been cut when I left dentistry in 2015 my earnings were the same as 1998 as costs of PPE disposable and all the extra beaucracy have gone up fees per item didn't Dentists are not poor like doctors but a dentist on the high steert just seeing NHS patients who is not the practice owner would really struggle to make 40-50K without private patients as well
this was all true pre covid and covid has mae it even worse

I suppose I’m lucky that in a couple of years we’ll probably be in a situation where we can pay for private dental without it being an issue but that really doesn’t change anything for all those vulnerable/low income adults and children who won’t.

I’m deeply disappointed at the number of responses insinuating it’s ‘entitled, selfish or grabby’ for someone who has paid taxes since 16, to a social system which offers dental care free (at least whilst pregnant/children) to expect to be able to access it . I don’t have anything to be ashamed of!

It’s a really horrible mindset toward struggling young families and seriously, only on mumsnet could I be simultaneously shamed for being ‘a rich doctors wife who is entitled’ and ‘a selfish poor parent who shouldn’t have had kids I can’t afford’ or told I should be paying for supposedly free healthcare with money my DH doesn’t earn yet I wonder whether den plan would accept an IOU for 4-5 years time?!?!

I’ve taken on board all the comments and do understand the challenges around dental funding and have already stated I don’t blame an individual dentist but the overall system.

However, I stand by my opinion that the snotty and belittling hard selling of denplan by receptionists who have no idea of the individuals circumstances is shitty! If someone is ringing asking about NHS patient spots for their kids they shouldn’t come off the phone feeling 2 inches tall because they dared to expect a free service to be free. ‘Oh no we’re not taking NHS patients...we’ve got enough of those’ said in a snotty manner is not an acceptable response!

the NHS are deliberately not commissioning enugh UDA to see everyone that needs dental treatment this is an NHS problem not the dentists
maybe the receptionist was rude but maybe she is fed up of being taken to task for something she can't deliver and neither can her boss; the dentist if there are no UDA for more NHS patients there are none

We really can't.

We really can. Other countries provide a much higher standard of services - and of living - than us. But like you, many British voters are a Tory's wet dream who've swallowed the narrative that it's low-income scroungers who are bleeding our coffers dry, rather than the rich.

@WinstonsWeirdVole

I think a lot of people on this thread should be directing their anger at the people who have underfunded the NHS for years and stealthily privatized areas of the system, rather than at a middle-income family who quite understandably question why NHS dentistry should not be widely available on a par with other areas of healthcare.

This 100%

No MissLucyEyelesbarrow but I earn a lot less in the NHS than I would in a private company. Because I feel people should be able to access what I do free of charge, because this is civilized society.

@Windchangeface In reply to your latest update, it's surprising that you weren't aware of the shortage of NHS dental care until your house move.

It's been an issue for years and years.

You don't have to use a dentist in your area unlike registering with a GP so you can widen your net.

You can also pay as you go with private dental care. It's cheaper than Denplan if you need the odd routine check up.

Are you sure that the receptionist wasn't simply trying to be helpful by suggesting insurance plans? A lot of people can afford £20 a month, which isn't a huge sum. If they can't then yes, they would have to use the NHS and travel perhaps further than they'd like.

I've paid taxes for many years but choose a private dentist as I get better treatment. I don't get a refund or tax perk for going private, my taxes pay for people who can't afford private care, so I'm paying twice.

I think rather than getting so angry over this, maybe just accept that's how it is, and either travel further to an NHS dentist or pay as you go.

I think a lot of people on this thread should be directing their anger at the people who have underfunded the NHS for years and stealthily privatized areas of the system, rather than at a middle-income family who quite understandably question why NHS dentistry should not be widely available on a par with other areas of healthcare

No argument with that. However I can also see why the o/p’s original post has got peoples backs up, it does come across as poor them only on a dr’s wage, and her poor dh who provides healthcare completely free of charge

That and the statements that dentist are elitist, snobby, and have idea above their station, clearly with no understanding of how the system works, despite her dh working within it.

If she’d have phrased it as not realising underfunding by the nhs had lead to it being almost completely privatised, this would be a different thread.

I agree with you OP. It's outrageous. NHS dentistry isn't free though. It's heavily subsidized.

However and every nhs dentist I've ever gone to mega upsells:

"Oh you need a filling Mrs twolittlebears. The NHS will most of the cost of this shit one. But you can pay for this lovely job for £££."

Oh Mrs twolittlebears we're doing special cleanings for ££, would you like one to remove the coffee staining

I usually do then pay for these thing. Which I'm lucky to be able to afford to do. But they've got me in the door on the NHS checkup.

For some reason this feels less cheeky than what you've described. I guess because if I couldn't afford it, I would still get the basic care.

It's totally counter-productive not to fund free dentistry for everyone, just like the rest of healthcare is supposed to be free at the point of use.

Poor oral health affects the rest of the body anyway (e.g. can contribute to heart disease), and emergency dental work is free at hospitals, so they are just waiting for people to get ill when it will cost the NHS more to treat them than if they'd just cared for their teeth for free in the first place.

It's really arbitrary to separate out the teeth/gums from the rest of the body, and it's a shame people are so used to paying for it now that they think people are unreasonable to want free dental care even for their children.

I think that we have had a two tier medical system for years and COVID has accelerated the switch to something far more like the U.S.

Apparently there is now a waiting list of over a year for ‘non-urgent’ surgery (e.g hip replacements), whereas if you can afford it privately, you can probably be operated upon within a couple of weeks.

Many GPs will only see you over Zoom for 5 minutes for anything ‘non urgent’ whereas I can get 15-30 minutes with a private GP on the same day at my convenience.

Dentists do seem to be the worst of all, though, with teeth seen as expendable unless you can afford regular private care.

We criticise the U.S a lot but NHS is increasingly like the free hospitals that they have there.

We either need to go unashamedly private, follow a co-payment policy like most of Europe (my preferred option) or pay a lot more into the NHS.

At the moment people have a fantasy that the NHS is great. It just isn’t, which is why the majority of people who can even scrape up the money to see someone privately elect to do so, to be treated promptly and respectfully.

NHS dentists have capacities they get fined heavily if they exceed. They actually work at a loss to treat patients under the NHS, especially now as PPE and fallow times have increased running costs.

Complain to your MP, not about the dentists.