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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Did you make the choice to be / not be religious?

386 replies

the0logical · 16/03/2021 20:16

Just been reading another thread on here about religion and I always think the theological discussions on here are fascinating.

I'll start - I identify as an athiest, I was brought up in a non-religious family but attended heavily Catholic schools. I didn't like some of the ideologies that became mixed into the religious elements of my schooling (e.g. through correlation or randomness, the most "devout" children were always the most prejudiced) and this pushed me away from entering into any faith. I studied Philosophy & Religion at a higher level and then learned about my perception of fallacies in most major religions, which I couldn't seem to logically support especially when I didn't have any feelings of faith. I've never felt the capacity to let myself be succumbed by a religion, though I have tried - I just don't believe.

So, guess I'm just curious to know some reasons why people are / aren't religious and how much of a "choice" it is. Not a reporter before anyone asks, just a nerd who loves anecdotes especially in a religious debate!

YABU - I made an active choice to become religious, or to become non-religious
YANBU - I didn't make any choice, I have always believed / never believed
(hoping that makes sense!)

OP posts:
tangerinelollipop · 17/03/2021 10:38

I'd be very interested in reading a study on the logical capacity

I don't think that most believers have no logical capacity. As I've said before, as I grow older, I think that it appears to be more logical to believe there's something else, than to think everything is fortuitous or down to 'accidents'. That's just my view, anyway

tangerinelollipop · 17/03/2021 10:39

Yes, OP, studies on identical twins are always fascinating!

the0logical · 17/03/2021 10:40

I don't think that most believers have no logical capacity. As I've said before, as I grow older, I think that it appears to be more logical to believe there's something else, than to think everything is fortuitous or down to 'accidents'.

Not trying to insinuate that believers have no logical capacity by any means! But I still think it would be an interesting study on the process of thought and if that process affected probability of religiousness (or drive / motivation towards it).

OP posts:
FeistySheep · 17/03/2021 10:43

The trouble with all the arguments of 'God is bad', is that that's all well and good if it turns out there is no God. But if it turns out there is a God, it doesn't matter how much you dislike 'religion' theoretically, you are living on God's earth and would be bound by his rules along with everyone else. You can't change whether there is a God or not, and if there is you can't change him and his rules either. You just have to decide whether to choose him, or not.

There's also a lot of understandable feelings on this thread regarding PP having been wronged by religious people in one way or another. This is very sad, but unfortunately religious people are still people, and do wrong things. God does not wave a magic wand when people become believers and make them perfect. It would be a shame, therefore, to judge God badly just because the church you had to attend as a child had some truly awful people in it.

LindaEllen · 17/03/2021 10:44

I was brought up to be a protestant Christian. My dad always encouraged me to say prayers daily and to attend church.

By the end of my late teens I was fully aware that it was bollocks, and when I moved out to go to uni I never went to church again.

Sunflowerpower11 · 17/03/2021 10:49

I was always unsure about religion but leaning towards not believing.

I started studying the Abrahamic religions recently and the more I learn the more ridiculous it seems.

I've also realised I'd never be able to follow these religions as I find a lot of the things in the holy books immoral. Even if it turned out one of these religions are the one true one, I'd never be able to truly follow them as I'd still feel things about them are immoral and I'd probably be sent to hell anyway for disagreeing with God's word.

the0logical · 17/03/2021 10:50

The trouble with all the arguments of 'God is bad', is that that's all well and good if it turns out there is no God. But if it turns out there is a God, it doesn't matter how much you dislike 'religion' theoretically, you are living on God's earth and would be bound by his rules along with everyone else. You can't change whether there is a God or not, and if there is you can't change him and his rules either. You just have to decide whether to choose him, or not.

I would hope he would be forgiving enough to accept the reasons of the non-religious for not believing in him (which seem commonly reasonable to me). If my own personal disbelief was enough to get me barred from heaven, then I can't imagine heaven would be that enjoyable for me personally, as my own personal heaven wouldn't have that form of moral exclusivity.

OP posts:
JustAnotherPoster00 · 17/03/2021 10:50

But if it turns out there is a God, it doesn't matter how much you dislike 'religion' theoretically

and if youre good enough you can have jam tomorrow

I think this is one of the reasons I stopped trying to believe, I tried so so hard to believe over years and years and just couldnt and slowly started to realise that some of those people that I attended church with were just awful hypocritical people and that the entire religion was predatory on peoples pain, using the stick of eternal suffering or the carrot of jam tomorrow with no measurable benefit inbetween except for a drain on your resources whether that was through time or money

BiBabbles · 17/03/2021 10:52

if you had the choice to be religious or believe in God, would you take it?

Individualistic deity or deities, no. It has no appeal to me anymore.

A pantheistic divine force that we do not currently but may one day have the capacity to perceive and which part of us that we may one day be able to observe that may originate and return to said divine force - I'm open to the concept, but I still wouldn't think such a force should be in charge of codifying behaviour or ritualistically worshiped in a way that would fit under religion.

a lot of posters on MN say that they are comfortable with the principle that actions have consequences, etc. Why are some then so against the idea that good actions will be somehow rewarded?

Except we all know many actions don't have consequences. We know people get away with rape and murder. We know people do active harm and not only have no negative consequences, but are praised and rewarded within our systems. We know our systems often incentivise terrible behaviour and how hard they can make it to do good behaviour that reduces the suffering of others. Why would I pin my hopes on a reward or punishment later when I'm dead? I accept that life isn't fair and sometimes I've benefitted from that as much as I've been harmed by it.

I have considered the ideas that our actions and deaths might affect a pantheistic divine force which may then in turn affect us, but I think that's very different to the individualistic consequences being discussed.

Children will still have a choice, even if they are presented with ideas about religion and spirituality at an early age. If they aren't it's very likely they will be atheists when older. I've seen it many times.

Most people I know in that situation are in the don't really care camp rather than a strong belief in any direction, including atheism or agnostic philosophy.

I'm a home educating parent that requires in Y6 for my children to take a Bible and It's Influences course. I have the textbook on my shelf. We cover a wide range of philosophical and religious systems. We're also a household that doesn't celebrate Christmas or Easter so no, I'm not surprised my older children are all either in the "don't care" or "humans do not have the capacity at this time to give a definitive answer" when facing the wide range of systems and their affects out there. My 9-year-old has some interesting ideas of gods as powerful aliens who now live elsewhere in space though.

I think what's important is the core principles many religions share (e.g. some form of the Ten Commandments, that there's some sort of superior being responsible for creation), not the 'petty' stuff if you like

I've studied and worked with many Jewish scholars, and I've yet to meet one that thinks the 10 commandments are the core of Judaism. They're the most well known, but they're really not the base. The idea of them as the core and that the rest of the 603 commandment and all the writings is petty stuff doesn't fit even the most relaxed understanding of Judaism by a Jewish scholar that I've come across. Important, yes, but not the core. The core is usually given more as struggling and wrestling with God (the meaning of Israel) or a more cultural importance. The 'petty stuff' is actually really important in understanding the different sects.

Religions are very different, and within them there are a lot of differences. This idea that they all paint similar ethics, or that the rules are the base of the faith, I don't think represents what many people of those groups say about their own faiths. I don't think watering them down into some sort of universal ethics has much benefit.

Those of you who are atheists, how would you feel if your DC chose to be religious when they were older?

Same as I would feel about them becoming politically active - how do they balance challenging institutional corruption with going along with it for the "greater good" or their personal comfort?

Their worldview being different to mine doesn't bother me. I'd only be disappointed if they made excuses for the inexcusable because of some divine reasoning and I'd be disheartened if the put their entire moral compass into something controlled by others because I think that's harmful and will likely harm them eventually. Many religious people aren't like that though, I know many who fight corruption within their faiths and the use of their texts and systems as means of control. That I don't feel like spending my time doing that much anymore and do not see the benefit in individualistic deities doesn't mean they won't.

there are lots of kind, compassionate people involved in organised religion, whose only aim is to do good

There are a lot of kind, compassionate people involved in government who only want to do good, that doesn't mean it isn't a network of systems that holds many of them back or that I should follow any specific political doctrine because some of what its followers have done good in the world. I don't think the good counteracts all the issues of corruption and sanctioned harm or makes their beliefs any less ideological or any more representative of reality. It's their effects I care about, not whether they think they're doing good because their ideology says so.

But, anyhow, there are lots of ideologies today that are about power and control and don't seem to generate as much controversy. Think of 'cancel culture', etc. A lot appear to tolerate it.

There are reams and reams of writing on the problems of cancel culture. There are people who benefit from it who promote the concepts of shunning people who they view do wrong and there are people who speak out against it and those are generally unaffected by the large chunk of it as squabbling outside of their perception so tolerate it easily.

Organised religions are a systemic means of socially promoting and obstructing behaviours and ideas - otherwise they wouldn't be organisations, all of them do this, religions just throw divinity into the mix. With this comes power and social control. How it's used and how that is viewed depends on many factors.

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 17/03/2021 10:52

@skirk64. God’s intercession restoring the natural balance😉

@Moonmelodies

I would say that the argument (from a faith perspective) takes a slightly different view. It isn’t that the ball would go upwards and defy gravity, it is just that the downward trajectory is not a static path for the ball itself to take - that is gravitational force (an external force) exerting an influence on the ball. The ball can go upwards if you throw it up so it’s path is not fixed and your intervention changing the effect of a gravitational force for a brief period. It is meant to show that nothing is so fixed in life and that your presence does have an effect on external things.

That, to, me is what examples like that can illustrate. I really think so much of this is about language and perception and that at times of grief, pain, tragedy, we can understandably lose sight of the bigger picture. The metaphysical, abstract and, at times absurdist, perspectives of faith give us a framework to connect to something gentler, loving and protective at times when we need it. That can be the very abstract space we need in order to make sense of things that ultimately make no sense and cause all consuming grief (the loss of a loved one, for example).

Yesterday, I walked to a nearby nature beauty spot and sat in the sunshine, headphones on, listening to Dark side of the moon. Now, that was a spiritual experience for me - a pause in daily life to sit in nature with beautiful harmonic sounds. But the elevation I get from it comes, I suspect from a background of being open to it and nurturing it from a young age. I never saw my RC faith as a set of rules, rather simple guidelines that reign in excesses of self that, if left unchecked, could damage the development of other parts of one self. (So, self discipline).

Ultimately, I take my guides from people who have actually experienced the greatest traumas in life. I have spoken to many who have experienced war and loss and ironically, it is those who have faith who seem to be able to manage the trauma they have experienced, let it go and move on to live the rest of their lives. I decided if they can trust after what they have seen, then it is ultimately a matter of choice and to learn from the wise rather than the cynical.

Neap · 17/03/2021 10:52

@tangerinelollipop

I think some people's view of religion and spirituality is clouded by specific negative experiences they've had with humans. It's happened to me as well, but I make a conscious effort to separate the two, as human actions have nothing to do with God or the principles of most religions
Well, quite, but where do you stop separating ‘things associated with a specific faith, its principles, practices, texts, and personnel etc’ off from a deity? Because if you follow that line of logic, and cut off ‘fallible human stuff’ from consideration, you’re left with ‘Well, nothing is God apart from God himself’ and the kind of cosy, contextless relationship with someone conveniently invisible and inaudible described in detail by a poster on another current thread, in which God sounds like a comfort blanket, personalised to the individual.
LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 17/03/2021 11:03

And lastly, I am amazed at the people who are surprised at a poster’s response about needing God to be moral - surely history shows us that, actually, many people believe that morality is a construct to control society and they are happy to disregard it - where are the morals in war? I think it is very easy to mock religion from a comfortable, modern, affluent social perspective but we are a small percentage of the world that has to deal with the raw, unforgiving brutality of human and physical nature. We see what we choose to see and I think is true for atheists, as well. The fabric of a daily lives is shaped by the Protestant faith in the UK in ways we don’t recognise as intentional, deliberately defined space (until we need a decent school for our children and then object to daily worship).

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 17/03/2021 11:09

@Neap your beef I think is with one idea of faith that doesn’t sit with where you think it should sit in your logical framework.

Buccanarab · 17/03/2021 11:10

The trouble with all the arguments of 'God is bad', is that that's all well and good if it turns out there is no God. But if it turns out there is a God, it doesn't matter how much you dislike 'religion' theoretically, you are living on God's earth and would be bound by his rules along with everyone else. You can't change whether there is a God or not, and if there is you can't change him and his rules either. You just have to decide whether to choose him, or not.

Two points.

Firstly, the trouble with that argument is you have no way of knowing which God/religion is the right one. There's somewhere between 4,000-10,000 distinct religions, many with different, and sometimes conflicting rules, so choosing just one to base your life on is no safer than not believing at all.

Secondly, you say you can't change God and "his"* rules, yet that's demonstrably false. Christian God, for example, has changed massively since its inception and continues to do so.

*side note isn't it interesting that a supreme being beyond human comprehensive just happens to be human gendered.

GuineaPigsAreTribblesWithEyes · 17/03/2021 11:16

That's all just Pascal's wager jiggled around and restated a bit. One of the main problems with Pascal's wager being that you can't choose what you believe to be true.

GuineaPigsAreTribblesWithEyes · 17/03/2021 11:19

(Which is a big problem when your local religion is one which says you only get to win if you truly believe.)

TaraR2020 · 17/03/2021 11:35

Culturally Christian here, as per a lot of ppl in the UK - coe primary school and go along for Christmas carols, weddings etc.

I'm very conflicted! I don't subscribe to organised religion at all, but I do see the attraction and think there's a place to practise a faith in life.

Like most people i know though, I really struggle with judgements and prejudices against others based on their beliefs, sexualities or lifestyle. I grew up believing in benign, all loving God and if my experience of churches supported this then I think I'd feel quite differently about religion.

I don't really know how to describe my beliefs, the closest I get to it is spiritual and agnostic. I do think there's an element of choice in religious belief as well, although for me the belief that there is something more than our physical existence isn't a matter of choice, it just is.

KarmaViolet · 17/03/2021 11:49

@LibrariesGiveUsPower45321

I was raised Christian, turned my back on it as a teen. Came back to it as an adult because I can’t not believe in God. However I’m disagree with a lot of stuff taught in a lot of Churches. There’s too much man made stuff that isn’t in the Bible, and isn’t what Jesus taught.
This is the same as me.
Newnamefor2021 · 17/03/2021 11:51

I was raised in a religion and 100% committed and believing. I was LDS/Mormon for most of my life.

I did make the conscious decision to leave a few years ago. I then consciously decided to be atheist.

It's interesting how much you can be indoctrinated, I never questioned, I defended it and would have potentially died as I KNEW where I was going if I died and it was worth so much more than this life. It's quite a dangerous thing really and everyday I feel disbelief at my unquestioning faith.

I clearly remember debating with someone who said religion, at least mine, was brainwashing and I argued that all education was ifs that's their argument. Now I can see the huge difference between teaching someone their times tables and teaching someone belief.

It takes years to unwrite that conditioning, I still keep the Mormon word of wisdom for example, I don't drink alcohol, tea, coffee etc.

I think I always knew if it left it would be atheist, it was harder for my husband as he had never had those thoughts so slipping into atheism was harder for him and I left him decide and unpick things himself as I didn't want to influence him in anyway. I personally always had issues the the bible, Mormons are taught the bible is scripture but that it has some translation issues and so the main body of scripture is the Book of Mormon and other "Mormon" books. When I realised it was fake the god thing just went with it.

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 17/03/2021 11:59

@Newnamefor2021

Interesting, isn't it? I think we all see religion as it related to our personal experience and tradition yet we are on a public, international site and there are thousands of different experiences and viewpoints.

@GuineaPigsAreTribblesWithEyes

I think raising Pascal's wager is interesting but that's an academic debates - I am talking about lived faith and in and of the senses, not just doctrine.

GuineaPigsAreTribblesWithEyes · 17/03/2021 12:00

I was replying to the previous post.

nitsandwormsdodger · 17/03/2021 12:02

Married to a practicing religious person who describes it at cultural as well as a choice his parents are same religion and practicing
I have agreed to raise kids in religion and they go to a great religious school which we have to pay for
I passionately believe in love and kindness and community work and happily join in religious activities and fundraising but I just can't "believe " in the way others do. And have declined offers of conversion as my heart and head are not in it. We are getting kids through the age rituals and "forcing" attendance at place of worship ( too young to be left home alone .) but as teens can choose for themselves

Newnamefor2021 · 17/03/2021 12:07

@FeistySheep

The trouble with all the arguments of 'God is bad', is that that's all well and good if it turns out there is no God. But if it turns out there is a God, it doesn't matter how much you dislike 'religion' theoretically, you are living on God's earth and would be bound by his rules along with everyone else. You can't change whether there is a God or not, and if there is you can't change him and his rules either. You just have to decide whether to choose him, or not.

There's also a lot of understandable feelings on this thread regarding PP having been wronged by religious people in one way or another. This is very sad, but unfortunately religious people are still people, and do wrong things. God does not wave a magic wand when people become believers and make them perfect. It would be a shame, therefore, to judge God badly just because the church you had to attend as a child had some truly awful people in it.

Surely that's not faith though, surely that's just edging your bets. I believe because if I didn't and I was wrong than it would be more disastrous than if I believed and was wrong. 😆

I think the fact when people are hurt and leave is less to do with the person who hurt them and more to do with that giving them a moment to stand back and evaluate things.

In the same way you think that believing is the safe bet, others may say staying in a situation that makes you unhappy is a worthless endeavour if this is it. If you die here and now and there is nothing else then surely you want to have made the most of the opportunities and experiences open to you. If that's in religion than great, if it's not then great.

Finally, I think when your in a religion is hard to see the wood for the trees sometimes, usually you surround yourself with people who believe similar things to you. The reality is though there are billions of people on the earth and throughout time, trillions, and only a tiny tiny percentage of those people believe the same thing you do. In the history of the world religion has changed and what most people believe has changed.

Right now there are thousands of gods and religions, if your edging your bets, how do you know you have chosen the right one? What if it's the Muslim god that's right? Or the Mormon god? Or maybe Sikhism, Taoism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism.

Islam is the fasted growing religion, does that mean it's more likely to the the right one. Hinduism is likely the oldest, so that the true one? Christianity is fairness new historically although it's the biggest religion now, although it's divided up into hundreds of sects each claiming to be the true Christian religion.

Aozora13 · 17/03/2021 12:21

My family are not actively religious but I went to of CofE primary school. At around 7 or 8 I got really into fossils, dinosaurs etc, discovered Darwin and it was like a light switched on (or off) and I was a fully committed atheist!

I was pretty anti-religion for a while but my views softened when I saw how much comfort and community it could bring. I have had times when I would have loved to have faith but I just can’t make that cognitive jump.

Having said that, I’m still culturally Christian in that we do advent calendars, Christmas, Easter eggs etc but probably more focused on the err pagan trappings rather than anything to do with Jesus. I can also see a lot of my moral framework derived from Christianity. It’s sometimes hard to separate out what’s “mainstream British culture” and what’s “Christian culture” as the two are so intwined. It didn’t even occur to me it was a thing until I had a similar convo in my early 20s with a friend who is Jewish and atheist.

DaisyWaldron · 17/03/2021 12:24

One of the things that stands out to me in reading the posts is the distinction between believing and not believing, and the assumption that "faith" is necessarily an unwavering state of believe. I would describe myself as deeply religious, but my faith is probably around 90% doubt. I don't know that God exists at all, I just choose to live my life as though that is true. It's like romantic love for me - I don't think my husband is my one true love. If things had been different I could have ended up married to someone completely different, or nobody at all. But I saw something with potential and tried it out to see how it would go, and let that be something I shaped my life around, and when things weren't great I trusted that the problems were things that could be sorted out. And that's what religion feels like to me. It's not something that will make everything perfect, but it is something that makes me stronger and better and is worth doing. I don't think God cares all that much whether I pray or sing a hymn, but doing those things brings me into a state of being closer to God, and I experience that as being more loving, more committed to justice and kindness and peace, more determined and braver and more willing to learn from my mistakes rather than hide from them.