Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Did you make the choice to be / not be religious?

386 replies

the0logical · 16/03/2021 20:16

Just been reading another thread on here about religion and I always think the theological discussions on here are fascinating.

I'll start - I identify as an athiest, I was brought up in a non-religious family but attended heavily Catholic schools. I didn't like some of the ideologies that became mixed into the religious elements of my schooling (e.g. through correlation or randomness, the most "devout" children were always the most prejudiced) and this pushed me away from entering into any faith. I studied Philosophy & Religion at a higher level and then learned about my perception of fallacies in most major religions, which I couldn't seem to logically support especially when I didn't have any feelings of faith. I've never felt the capacity to let myself be succumbed by a religion, though I have tried - I just don't believe.

So, guess I'm just curious to know some reasons why people are / aren't religious and how much of a "choice" it is. Not a reporter before anyone asks, just a nerd who loves anecdotes especially in a religious debate!

YABU - I made an active choice to become religious, or to become non-religious
YANBU - I didn't make any choice, I have always believed / never believed
(hoping that makes sense!)

OP posts:
tangerinelollipop · 19/03/2021 08:46

significant role the authorities of the church

some authorities, you mean? Also there is more awareness of these issues now (presumably in all institutions) so if they were to happen again they would be addressed.

The vendetta some people pursue against the Catholic church today in order to perpetuate a negative image is unfair, sorry

SimonJT · 19/03/2021 08:47

@tangerinelollipop

SimonJT what a disgusting post. Of course not everyone in the Church does this. It's full of very decent people trying to do good. Also many religious people these days wear condoms as they try to be pragmatic obviously. Not sure what you mean about people being locked up either
So you failed the notice the thousands of young pregnant women locked up by the catholic church so their babies could be stolen from them.

You might not do it, but you chose to support an organisation that does. If someone was trying to do they wouldn’t join an organisation that protects peadophiles.

TheKeatingFive · 19/03/2021 08:50

some authorities, you mean?

Pretty widespread in fairness. But even ‘some’ is utterly appalling. These people set themselves up as moral authorities. Utter cunts is what they actually are.

Also there is more awareness of these issues now (presumably in all institutions) so if they were to happen again they would be addressed.

Oh well, that’s alright then Hmm

TheKeatingFive · 19/03/2021 08:52

The vendetta some people pursue against the Catholic church today in order to perpetuate a negative image is unfair, sorry

Just. Wow.

Have a read of this.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/news/tuam-babies-it-would-be-kinder-to-strangle-these-illegitimate-children-at-birth.amp

Yes that negative image is so unfair, totally agree Hmm

tangerinelollipop · 19/03/2021 08:55

Have a read of this

But all of that happened ages ago (and I agree all mistakes should be addressed)

But the Catholic Church is helping millions of people as we speak, so yes, I think it's disgusting that so many seem to be trying so hard to destroy it

TheKeatingFive · 19/03/2021 08:58

But all of that happened ages ago

Fuck sake

and I agree all mistakes should be addressed

You’re calling the deaths of 800 babies and children by neglect/starvation and their burials in a septic tank a ‘mistake’?

I think you need some help tbh.

pointythings · 19/03/2021 09:21

tangerinelollipop this shit is still happening.

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/most-heinous-sin-misogynistic-legacy-of-canon-law-and-abortion-1.3534983

Do you really think the Catholic Church would act any differently right now? I don't. Until they stop this misogynist crap, the Catholic Church as an organisation deserves all the vituperation it gets. And the people who follow it uncritically deserve their share. This does not apply to those who are critical and express that criticism IMO.

Norwaydidnthappen · 19/03/2021 09:29

My Dad was raised Jewish and still says he is a practicing Jew because he celebrates Hanukkah and Passover but he never goes to synagogue unless there’s a wedding or funeral (much to my Gran’s shame!). Mum was raised Anglican and my Grandad’s wife is an Anglican minister but my Mum is an Atheist. So I have religious grandparents but my parents not so much. I decided from an early age the whole God thing was nonsense.

BiBabbles · 19/03/2021 09:37

(FWIW I would include some kind of atheism or principled agnosticism as beliefs or convictions about the nature of reality as much as any particular religious viewpoint.

Yes, traditionally agnostic are of the opinion that part of reality is that humans do not currently and may not ever have the capacity to rationally define the Divine or supernatural of the universe - it's nature or its lack within nature - in an appropriate manner. It isn't a religion though as a religion requires a system of devotion and, while it seems the popular insult against agnostics that we are the 'maybe' 'open-minded', 'at least' position, many of us have very firm worldviews even without making any claims on the nature of the Divine.

Agnostics and atheists may have a wide range of beliefs about the nature of reality beyond those concepts - just as people of faith do - but those labels in themselves do not define them. I am a monist, I find societies attachment to dualism - the 'I think therefore I am' model that separates who we are from our bodies and the rest of physical reality - something that hinders and too often used as an excuse for corruption, but there are religious monist and there are atheist monists, there are religious dualists (most large faiths now have dualist tendencies to them with the whole good/evil) and atheist dualists and agnostic dualists, same with pluralists. My agnostism is not the entirety of my worldview and choosing that label does not mean I fit into any other philosophies. Many people's worldview fits into multiple philosophies. Going on at atheists for not mentioning every philosophy but not at any of the religious people who will have multiple philosophies within their faith ignores that their religious labels and definitions are not all of their perception of reality either, no matter how devout.

I’m always confused by how people base their disbelief in God by judging him/her by how we think he should be by our standards. What makes people think our time on earth should be idyllic . Do we really think that God should be intervening in all our sufferings. What would be the point in us being on earth. We’re here for a speck in time.......Why are we presuming we should have a perfect life. Something goes wrong.....there can’t be a God, he wouldn’t allow that to happen. It’s a strange mindset imo. What about the miracle of making a baby? Such huge things that are a miracle in itself taken for granted as if it’s nothing.

And I'm always confused why - even if we take nature as evidence of something beyond we can currently perceive - why assume any divine force is an individual at all?

Any deity that exists that has a will (as opposed to a supernatural divine pantheistic force with no individual will but is a creative and/or maintaining force within the universe) then it allows everything to happen as by definition they would the capacity to change it. Choosing not to do something for some 'greater good' is still a choice for someone who has the capacity to change it and much as most of us frown on adults who do so when vulnerable people are harmed, it is seen that if the divine has a will, it's existence does not mean it is worthy of worship.

And no, I do not view making a baby as a miracle anymore than a fly laying eggs - humans have one of the most invasive and dangerous pregnancies and childbirths around, any deity that purposefully did that (rather than evolution which has many examples of terrible things that are just not quite bad enough to impact reproduction) is not one I cannot think has my best intentions at heart, it reminds me more of authors who think their role is to make their creations suffer the most. I'm not a miracle - I'm the simple result of two people having sex and, according to my mother, religious communities that made abortion unavailable and unacceptable - I view what happened to her as something I will never be able to make right just as what she did to me is nothing she can make right. That does not mean I take my life for granted, far from it, I've survived a murder attempt but I do not think it is a miracle. I do not think there is any reason I survived when others in a similar position didn't beyond chance.

I agree with the idea of questioning: why think any human, with our limited capacity, would be able to, in any meaningful way, define the true nature of divinity? Why assume there is just one or that that deity is an individual? Why assume any human or anything made by humans can accurate describe them and their wants from us? Why assume they have wants at all? Why assume they want worship or that their status or part in our creation means they should be worshipped? We do not ask children to worship up - it rightly said they had no choice in the matter - why worship those involved in our creation even if it is beyond chance? If throwing Pascal's wager into the mix, I would question the risks of hubris for any organization that thinks it can define the divine to the point of making social rules on their behalf.

While certain religions are incentivised in many communities and some people's preference, there is no reason even if thinking that the nature of our universe as evidence of the Divine beyond our current comprehension, that that would be evidence for any deity currently 'known' to humans or that any of those deities wish to be worshipped in the way religions give. Those are humans made for human benefits, we can see that in how the texts have been edited over time, chosen over time, how rituals change over time.

Yes there is some evidence for resilience given by religion -- but none of factors involved are given solely by a religious belief in an individual deity. A chosen meaning, purpose, connection & community, active interest in the world, positive sense of the future as a possibility, rituals - some get these from religions, just as some get them elsewhere as faith in a deity or deities is not required for any of these. Whether a chosen purpose brings benefits or harm depends on what they do with it.

I strongly dislike when harm is not only protected by promoted by a religious organization often in God's name, that it ends up being "just people". No, it is the organization that used the concepts of a deity and said deity's will as defined by those people to the masses to shield perpetrators and incentivize the delays or lack of justice. It was allowed to happen because people were incentivised through faith to allow those 'doing good' to do so without appropriate challenge. That challenging may happen more these days in some countries, but that's come after a secularisation process where religious leaders were no longer in control enough to be viewed as capable of policing their own.

tangerinelollipop Calling acts of violence and corruption within any institution, religious or otherwise, "bad press" is disgusting, and people react in kind. Whether everyone did it is as irrelevant as if everyone today benefits from international slavery, the powers within the institutions that supported those actions either directly in the cause of the laundries or indirectly by shuffling around abusive clergy and pushing against moves for outside involvement in these issues which still exist is not something we can dismiss as a press issue.

There are people within all institutions that are trying to do good, that doesn't mean their worldview is something to emulate. I have family that are American Evangelical Republicans that do things of benefit for others -- that doesn't mean I have to agree that they're right about God, social behaviours, and how governments should function. I live in an area with 3 former UKIP councillors who do a lot of good - it's very frustrating to me how often they're the only visible politicians doing anything in my area - I can support what they're doing while disagreeing with their worldview.

Someone challenging an institution does not mean we're saying every single person within it is evil, personally I think it is vital that every institution has vigilant challenges. I actually volunteer within a religious school trust, which is well aware of my views, as part of the governing and oversight process because I do think they can do good, but such power within our community has to be monitored and evidence gathered on how their actions make an impact and I - and they - think this is better when a mix of people of different backgrounds and beliefs are part of the process.

Where does consciousness come from?

While there is still a lot of research to do into consciousness, I think it has to do with brain formation as brain damage alters consciousness and there is evidence of changes throughout our lifespan. I'm open to the idea that some part of that is from a divine source as I said, but I do not think what part of it in us is an individual that survives intact at death.

A thousand years ago we did not know where disease comes from and it was often attributed to the supernatural or divine will, it still is in some communities. I do not see why a lack of known answers on anything should lead me to thinking an individual deity with a divine will should be involved anymore than my not knowing who did something in my home should lead me to think invisible people did it.

NearlyAlwaysInsane · 19/03/2021 09:45

I was brought up Catholic, and had great experiences early on in primary school in a school run by nuns, it was the kindest school (the nuns ran the school but the teachers were mostly not nuns). I remember one day getting to school late and being met at the gate by the head nun, who took me to her office. I was terrified she would punish me. She asked me if I had had breakfast - I hadn't (it had been a disaster morning for my parents) and said so. She left her office, and came back with breakfast, before taking me into the classroom. Another dear memory for me is being sent out of class for behaviour - and a passing nun stopping and comforting me. It was that sort of kindness, again and again, and which was then repeated again and again in parish life, which gave me a connection to religion, rather than the more formal aspects, at least early on.

When I was in my 20s I then had to decide for myself whether to continue or not. I am glad I chose the latter, as that was more in tune with who I am.

SimonJT · 19/03/2021 09:50

@tangerinelollipop

Have a read of this

But all of that happened ages ago (and I agree all mistakes should be addressed)

But the Catholic Church is helping millions of people as we speak, so yes, I think it's disgusting that so many seem to be trying so hard to destroy it

The catholic church is still protecting peadophiles and allows them to remain prominent members of the church.

The catholic church still exerts control over the bodies of millions of women.

pointythings · 19/03/2021 09:54

The catholic church is still protecting peadophiles and allows them to remain prominent members of the church.

Indeed. And it excommunicates parents and doctors who facilitate an abortion for a 9yo who is raped, but does not excommunicate the rapist.

steppemum · 19/03/2021 09:55

I find it hard to answer the question in your terms.
'being religious' to me is a negative thing, it is about externals and not about faith.

I grew up in a firmly atheist household. School was C of E, but not pushy,
when I was 24 I came, quite out of the blue, to a need ot seek out God. I became a Christian, and still deeply and passionately believe in the God I found.
But it is not 'religion' it is more personal than that, a faith/relationship, a communication with God etc.

There are many things done in the name of Christianity that I don;t like. I am frustrated by the right wing extreme branch of the church which seem to me to have forgotten to read their Bibles. I find legalism and religiosity is the exact opposite of what Jesus intended.

So, yes I made a clear choice, I now could not not believe. I have seen too many times when God answered prayer in my life, it would be denying the evidence in fron of me to stop believing.

GoldenOmber · 19/03/2021 10:01

I am Catholic and think the Church deserves every criticism it gets over the mother and baby homes, and probably more - who knows how many individual acts of cruelty happened every day in those places that nobody ever spoke about. Yes the wider society was cruel and misogynist, but so what? I expect the church to do better than that not to use it as an excuse to institutionalise and propagate mass brutality.

“Oh but those women and their babies weren’t supported by their families or communities, what else could we have done.” You could have bloody HELPED them is what you could have done. Those places could have been havens and refuges. They weren’t. “Oh but the state wanted it this way!” Yes if only the Catholic Church had had some kind of influence over the state in 20th century Ireland, gosh what would that strange alternative universe have been like!

The Church has many very good people doing very good things, and I do think it’s more than a social club, I wouldn’t still be Catholic unless I felt it mattered at some level deeper than supporting my local football team. But it has perpetrated and perpetuated some absolute horrors.

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 19/03/2021 10:19

Yes, I’m with the critics in this regarding the abuse in the Church. The Tuam babies was horrific and the cover up showed priorities. It cannot and should not be rationalised out. I remember reading a post from someone who said that the guidance from healthcare professionals at the time was that paedophiles could be cured under the right conditions and the Chirch had been criticised for its previous actions so followed the secular advice and moved them to areas where they could be observed. It was a grievous failure of all.

I think the frightening thing is the culture of fear that paralyses voices but I do think that the focus has been on the Church during the Rotherham scandals and that also illustrated a culture of fear - it is large organisations and the very heinous nature of the crimes alongside a body that objectifies the acts in order to protect the person - I’m not sure an organisation that has at its core belief that God exists in all of us and we are all inherently good can then act other than by the law but the Church reflects the society it is in.

the0logical · 19/03/2021 10:50

I have only ever seen good done in His name. I am very lucky.

I think this is very interesting, especially how frequently it seems to be mentioned by those with faith that God and goodness are inherently tied. That's an utterly terrifying prospect to me, personally, and I couldn't imagine having my moral integrity dependent on the existence or non-existence of a higher being.

You have a belief about how reality functions. No one is really just an atheist.

I think though, that you can have philosophical ideologies about how things exist or how we perceive them without necessarily conflating it with religion. You can be an athiest who believes that life is a videogame if you so choose, and that wouldn't necessarily conflict with the idea of there being no God.

Anyway, this is fascinating. I'm especially interested in those who manage to accept the atrocities of the Catholic Church (as an example) and still support / participate in it. I mean that genuinely, not as antagonistic as it sounds.

OP posts:
sashh · 19/03/2021 12:06

SimonJT what a disgusting post. Of course not everyone in the Church does this. It's full of very decent people trying to do good. Also many religious people these days wear condoms as they try to be pragmatic obviously. Not sure what you mean about people being locked up either

I suggest you have a look at the film 'Spotlight'. There may well be a lot of very nice people trying to do good, I may even be related to some, but the RC church as an institution has done and continues to do harm and in some cases is pure evil.

Another couple of films for you

The Magdalene Sisters, Philomena.

I know films have artistic licence but when you read the basis for these films you soon find out there is a lot of truth in them.

When you have a child, now grown looking for his birth mother and at the same time you have a mother looking for her forcibly adopted son and you lie to them to keep them apart that is evil.

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 19/03/2021 12:46

I have spent the last hour writing a reply only to have deleted it by accident.

The short answer to your question, OP is that we cannot leave the Church now. The administrative apparatus has been dismantled.

Secondly, a lot of those who were abused are in the Church and I think many want to protect them and ensure they get back something that was taken from them as now the Churches are full of families who just want to get into the schools.

Thirdly, and this is personal but part of me exists in that space still and I can feel it is still connected to others. I think that’s how it works. Personally, I am getting my guidance from Judaism as I cannot reconcile the RC with the abuse that happened and my whole sense of trust has been shattered - yet we are still being attacked and blamed for it all and carrying the guilt and anger for it all. At the same time I cannot find my way in society whilst carrying all of this and what i feel about it and how I feel it has been used to push us out of our space. There is a lot more I could say about this and how certain communities have been set up against one another for resources but ultimately, I think resources for the poor and working broke in cities like London are thin compared to the wealth in the country and I feel any supporting infrastructure is better than nothing (youth clubs, girl guides, church concerts, etc). There is an invisible community of the lonely and alone and actually the faith organisations I think are the only bodies doing anything (food banks, the Sikh charity that fed the truckers at Dover).

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 19/03/2021 12:50

Of course that doesn’t mitigate the abuse. I don’t have the answers - I really don’t. I thought the secular world was for me too but I cannot accept the way they sacrifice the poor in society and justify it. Working in schools in London and seeing the disparity in resources in different demographics within the same boroughs brings it all home. The wealth and affluence of some is at the expense of others who are not so fortunate but to ignore that and put sticking plasters resources in place makes me sad.

Teaandakitkat · 19/03/2021 13:42

I think this is very interesting, especially how frequently it seems to be mentioned by those with faith that God and goodness are inherently tied. That's an utterly terrifying prospect to me, personally, and I couldn't imagine having my moral integrity dependent on the existence or non-existence of a higher being

Of course you can be good without God. But in my experience only good things are done in God's name. I realise my experience seems not to be the norm.

the0logical · 19/03/2021 13:49

Of course you can be good without God. But in my experience only good things are done in God's name. I realise my experience seems not to be the norm.

I see. What about those who spout homophobia / sexism / xenophobia in general in God's name?

OP posts:
tangerinelollipop · 19/03/2021 14:01

OP, it's clear by now that you don't rate religious people in the slightest.

But at least have some decency and respect those who are going to the trouble to conscientiously and candidly respond to allay the curiosity you said you had

Buccanarab · 19/03/2021 14:08

“If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.

Buccanarab · 19/03/2021 14:09

^^ That was meant to be in response to...
Of course you can be good without God. But in my experience only good things are done in God's name.

Parentpower20 · 19/03/2021 14:12

I make a choice. I don’t know for sure (my DH feels he ‘knows’ which I’ve never had) so it some ways I respect anyone who is agnostic but I choose to live out my faith, choose to believe in the mystery and confusion of it, choose to interpret things as from God, choose to confess my wrongdoings to myself, God and others, choose to forgive when people hurt me. The way I see it if if I’m wrong I’ll still have lived a better life for me and for those around me.