To be angry at the frenzy caused by others last night

[BarometerTV]

I think it was utterly disrespectful. We are in lockdown and it was not the right time for a protest. I agree with a quiet, respectful, socially distanced space to grieve - which is what appeared to happen during the day.

@LucieStar not Patsy, the other woman who was arrested (I’m loathe to give her name as refuse to give her any more airtime).

Alsohuman. Crikey...highly provocative 🙄And exactly the same as being told you should have been the person murdered, being called racist names etc etc which is what police officers had to deal with at a so called ‘vigil’

Are you saying you'd have been justified if you did?

I’m saying she invited it. Can you not read?

[quote LucieStar]@ancientgran

I'm sorry to hear about your husband.

My partner is in a similar role and I worry about him every time he goes on shift due to the level of aggression he has to deal with at times. [/quote]
Thank you. The thing I remember most about that day is the poor doctor who kept looking at me and the baby and trying not to say what he had to say. I felt so sorry for him, obviously not his fault but it must be so hard to deliver that sort of news.

@Alsohuman

Are you saying you'd have been justified if you did?

I’m saying she invited it. Can you not read?

Why are you being unnecessarily rude to me?

Yes I can read.

Your perception of someone "inviting" you to assault them does not make it OK to do so. We all have a choice and personal agency over our actions. You chose not to assault that officer, so on some level you knew that.

If a man hit a woman and said "well she was inviting it by provoking / inviting me", are you telling me you'd say OK fair enough, then?

No. Assaulting someone is never OK.

No. Assaulting someone is never OK

I agree. That goes for the police too.

Provocation used to be an old defence by men who murdered their wives. It no longer exists, and no one can claim it unless they want to look like someone who is guilty.

However, aggression is not the same as assault, in the same way that assault is not actual bodily harm and so on.

As for rising levels of aggression in society, or women apparently committing assault against police officers, while on an individual level that for a person to deal with, I do wonder why criminal justice is in such a state. The Met look badly trained, poorly led and overstretched. They need reform along with the rest of criminal justice, not more laws criminalising the population.If writing more laws did anything, then Britain would not have issues like Sarah Everard and protest problems.

@Alsohuman

No. Assaulting someone is never OK

I agree. That goes for the police too.

Yes of course it does.

[quote Dorsetdays]@LucieStar not Patsy, the other woman who was arrested (I’m loathe to give her name as refuse to give her any more airtime).

Alsohuman. Crikey...highly provocative 🙄And exactly the same as being told you should have been the person murdered, being called racist names etc etc which is what police officers had to deal with at a so called ‘vigil’[/quote]

Yes let's not give her any more airtime, you're right.

@LexMitior

Provocation used to be an old defence by men who murdered their wives. It no longer exists, and no one can claim it unless they want to look like someone who is guilty.

However, aggression is not the same as assault, in the same way that assault is not actual bodily harm and so on.

As for rising levels of aggression in society, or women apparently committing assault against police officers, while on an individual level that for a person to deal with, I do wonder why criminal justice is in such a state. The Met look badly trained, poorly led and overstretched. They need reform along with the rest of criminal justice, not more laws criminalising the population.If writing more laws did anything, then Britain would not have issues like Sarah Everard and protest problems.

The problem is clearly far above the level of the individual officers policing the street, in that case. They just become the targets for people's anger at the entire system. Which is entirely unfair.

And in turn that means it’s not acceptable for protestors to attack the police either by spitting, punching, kicking or throwing bottles at them.

That happened to at least 26 officers yet your response is that somehow they provoked it and therefore that’s ok?

As has previously been said on here, only four people were arrested (and not all for assault) which clearly demonstrates just how much the police actually let slide. How much exactly do you think they should have to put up with before it’s acceptable for those people to be moved on or arrested? Only allowable if they’re stabbed perhaps?

@LucieStar - I'm with you on that I have no hope of improvement. People are just bought off with "a new law".

Whereas they should be worried about

Lack of funding for rehabilitating offenders
Poorly socialised children who have abusive families, perpetuating the most serious offending and condemning generations to poverty and violence
A social care system that is exploited by predators
Prisons which are dangerous and where offenders kill themselves
A court system which is underfunded
Not enough police, not enough diversity in the police, not enough scrutiny, training or funding for the ones that are there

None of this will be fixed by more laws. None. The only person who loses is the public and those who serve the public. Politicians need to be told to stop criminalising the public and start funding the systems to prevent and reduce crime asap.

@Dorsetdays

And in turn that means it’s not acceptable for protestors to attack the police either by spitting, punching, kicking or throwing bottles at them.

That happened to at least 26 officers yet your response is that somehow they provoked it and therefore that’s ok?

As has previously been said on here, only four people were arrested (and not all for assault) which clearly demonstrates just how much the police actually let slide. How much exactly do you think they should have to put up with before it’s acceptable for those people to be moved on or arrested? Only allowable if they’re stabbed perhaps?

Does it really show how much the police “let slide”? Or goes it throw doubt on that number of 26? I suggest the latter. And if it is a reflection of reality, how many of those assaults occurred as a result of kettling round the bandstand?

[quote LexMitior]@LucieStar - I'm with you on that I have no hope of improvement. People are just bought off with "a new law".

Whereas they should be worried about

Lack of funding for rehabilitating offenders
Poorly socialised children who have abusive families, perpetuating the most serious offending and condemning generations to poverty and violence
A social care system that is exploited by predators
Prisons which are dangerous and where offenders kill themselves
A court system which is underfunded
Not enough police, not enough diversity in the police, not enough scrutiny, training or funding for the ones that are there

None of this will be fixed by more laws. None. The only person who loses is the public and those who serve the public. Politicians need to be told to stop criminalising the public and start funding the systems to prevent and reduce crime asap.[/quote]

I agree entirely. Like I said earlier, my partner works in the criminal justice system; as have I in the past (I'm now in the NHS). Both the CJS and NHS have huge funding issues - none of them are mine and my partner's fault though. We go to work and we do our best. We don't deserve to be assaulted or have verbal abuse hurled at us by the public due to systemic and political failures that are way above our heads.

Alsohuman. Another attempt at suggesting that whatever the police received was ok because it was their fault, they deserved it?

And you seem to just accept the version of events given by protestors but not one account by the chief of the police federation or written accounts sent to MP’s.

@Dorsetdays

Alsohuman. Another attempt at suggesting that whatever the police received was ok because it was their fault, they deserved it?

And you seem to just accept the version of events given by protestors but not one account by the chief of the police federation or written accounts sent to MP’s.

You’re wrong. I don’t accept either, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I’m definitely not buying 26 assaults and four arrests.

It's incredibly disturbing how many people are writing their own fanfiction about what happened and pointedly ignoring eye witness accounts, in order to support their "police = good, stupid wimmin not doing what they're told = bad" agenda.

Like the fact a minority of police were making hostile and incendiary comments right from the very start, including during the minute's silence, long before any "protesting" started.

Like the fact the first arrest, of a woman reading poetry and reciting a list of murdered women, took place at 6.15, when it was still a peaceful vigil.

Like the fact it was police who told and encouraged women to go onto the bandstand in the first place, because they wanted to separate some women from the crowd so they could make a public display of force.

Like the fact police kettled the women they'd urged onto the bandstand and refused to let them leave.

Like the fact police threatened to arrest women for not leaving when the police were the ones forming a human wall so they could not physically leave without endangering themselves.

Like the fact police refused to arrest the violent men, and the men with loudhailers, even when some of those men physically assaulted police, but instead targeted the smallest women they could find for arrest when those women were doing nothing but siting quietly out of the way.

I agree, we have a situation where the perception is that those who work in public services are the gatekeepers. As far as I can see, the public will increasingly stop seeing the person as working for the public service, and attribute anger to that person as representative of Government. And they will get very angry.

After years of working in criminal justice I gave it up - there was no point. I came to believe that the majority of people will always just say "crims, lock em up". That approach has been tried for 50 years. It has failed.

Like the fact police harassed, shoved around and threatened to arrest two of the Independent Observers (clearly identifiable due to their blue reflective hi-viz jackets) who are employed by the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner.

www.cheshire-pcc.gov.uk/get-involved/volunteering/independent-observer-of-protests-and-demonstrations/

Provocation used to be an old defence by men who murdered their wives. It no longer exists, and no one can claim it unless they want to look like someone who is guilty.

It's interesting you mention this, as in a lot of my work with violent offenders (typically young offenders), this came up as a justification for assault time and time again. "Yeah but you didn't see the way s/he was looking at me, you didn't hear what they were saying... enticing me to hit them... they asked for it". Etc etc.

It used to take a lot of work chipping away at this false justification and apparent entitlement that you can assault anyone who looks at your the wrong way. A lot of offender rehabilitation work was to challenge this and get people to see that we all ultimately have a choice and agency over our own behaviour (unless acting in self defence of course).

@LexMitior

I agree, we have a situation where the perception is that those who work in public services are the gatekeepers. As far as I can see, the public will increasingly stop seeing the person as working for the public service, and attribute anger to that person as representative of Government. And they will get very angry.

After years of working in criminal justice I gave it up - there was no point. I came to believe that the majority of people will always just say "crims, lock em up". That approach has been tried for 50 years. It has failed.

I'm still chipping away with offender rehabilitation but to be honest after 15 years of it myself, I'm slowly becoming disillusioned. Not always with the offenders themselves - some respond amazingly to intervention and really do make progress. But with the government underfunding and general public attitudes of "just lock them up and throw away the key, I don't know why you bother trying", etc. I can see why you gave it up.

@LucieStar - its a common attitude, almost like "he or she started it".

Of course we all have self control - we can decide to shout, swear, insult, push, punch, or kick.

People who said "I was provoked" used to concern me greatly. The justification was false, but there was much behind that statement, and sometimes it really indicated someone was dangerous in a serious way. An admission you had done something without the excuse was actually better, and the more reassuring response.

Of course we all have self control - we can decide to shout, swear, insult, push, punch, or kick.

Shame the police didn't exercise it.

The only thing that should have mattered at this stage was the family’s wishes. They requested that the meeting/ vigil/protest did not go ahead

I think that this is something that those vociferously defending the vigil haven’t addressed, unless I’ve missed it? It appears disrespectful that they haven’t TBH.

I’m certainly not defending the police, I think their actions were disgraceful.

People who said "I was provoked" used to concern me greatly. The justification was false, but there was much behind that statement, and sometimes it really indicated someone was dangerous in a serious way. An admission you had done something without the excuse was actually better, and the more reassuring response.

Oh absolutely. It's common among young lads who end up in YOIs - "that look on his face, he was staring me down, totally fucking asked for it". It's a worrying attitude for sure. It was always such a relief at the end of an intervention programme to hear the lads say "I'll walk away next time - I understand now that it's always an option and my actions are my own". Yes!! Success
And then I'd be like are you kidding me?! when one of them reoffended and came back.
But more often than not, there was a good response. I've seen more successes than failures.

@rosetylersbiggun

Of course we all have self control - we can decide to shout, swear, insult, push, punch, or kick.

Shame the police didn't exercise it.

It can certainly be a tactic to push or otherwise aggravate protestors. The police are not above that, and I have seen it myself.