To be angry at the frenzy caused by others last night

[BarometerTV]

I think it was utterly disrespectful. We are in lockdown and it was not the right time for a protest. I agree with a quiet, respectful, socially distanced space to grieve - which is what appeared to happen during the day.

DON'T attempt to bully me into silence I will say what I please within the talk guidelines @Flaxmeadow

Using examples of past police action is perfectly valid in this debate

I personally am housebound due to ill health which is why I am currently unable to attend any vigils, protests or marches but I do what I can within my confines

A southern or even London accent doesn't mean posh, I know people with extremely "plummy" accents due to that being the accent where they grew up who are most definitely working class. Equally I know "northerners" with broad accents who are most definitely upper class!

You are very presumptuous and prejudiced

Yes all those sneering posho homeless women! Well quite!

So it appears all those saying Sarah's family were against the vigil were wrong

Its not @Graphista using Hillsborough tactics from the Kelvin McKenzie playbook. So stop with the DARVO

Why are you downplaying and defending violence against working class women, disabled women, and elderly women?

I'm not. I'm trying to widen the debate to places in the north, where serious crimes are still being covered up and I want to know why the north doesn't see these same middle class left wing women activists protesting here

I do have concerns about women and girls safety, be it in London or in towns and cities in the north

So there are people on here saying Sarahs family said something that they didnt?

How sinister.

@MercyBooth

So there are people on here saying Sarahs family said something that they didnt?

How sinister.

It's really disappointing isn't it. Using a family's grief as an attempted gotcha is pretty low.

Using examples of past police action is perfectly valid in this debate

No you made a direct personal attack and in a vile way
You know what you did. Go away from me

I'm trying to widen the debate to places in the north, where serious crimes are still being covered up and I want to know why the north doesn't see these same middle class left wing women activists protesting here

That's an extremely valid argument and one I completely agree with. UK society is tremendously London-centric and southeast-centric and the disproportionate amount of funding and media attention given to London and the SE should be a major topic of conversation and debate.

I just don't think that smearing a group of mostly peaceful women (of all class backgrounds) attending a peaceful vigil, and being treated harshly by police who ignored more violent and disruptive male protestors, is the way to have that debate. Nothing in your (factually incorrect) suggestions that it was just posh women, that we were drunk and up for a fight, or any of the other stuff, has anything to do with geographic disparity.

I just don't think that smearing a group of mostly peaceful women (of all class backgrounds) attending a peaceful vigil, and being treated harshly by police who ignored more violent and disruptive male protestors, is the way to have that debate.

But we can't have "the debate" with them, them meaning liberal progressive left wing feminists. They refuse to debate it. Apart from the feminist boards favourite black beast "Holbeck" but it isn't Holbeck, as bad as that is, that I'm talking about

Nothing in your (factually incorrect) suggestions that it was just posh women,

Well they sound and look posh to me

that we were drunk

This has been taken out of context. My point was that if working class women drink they get dismissed as thuggish. If posh women drink they don't. It was an off topic point but I then said they could have been drunk for all we know. Something working class women are accused of all the time.

I didnt actually say they were drunk but that they would be less likely to be accused of it or thought to be it. In a park for example.

My point is middle class women can get away with a lot more than working class women. That they are taken more seriously, not seen as trouble causes or potential drunks in a public place

and up for a fight, or any of the other stuff, has anything to do with geographic disparity.

But it does

Well they sound and look posh to me

Did the street homeless woman who was interviewed on the news talking about her own fears and sense of being extremely vulnerable appear "posh" to you?

*This has been taken out of context. I didnt actually say they were drunk but that they would be less likely to be accused of it or thought to be it. In a park for example."

What you actually said:
"For all we know the protestors in the park could have been pissed out of their brains and up for fight, drunk and disorderly even."

Not a single word about class or how middle class women are treated differently from working class women.

My point is middle class women can get away with a lot more than working class women.
That's massive revisionism. Some of your earlier rants did not mention one word about the North, class or geographic disparity, or working class women. It was just nasty, dishonest rants aimed at attacking the women attending the vigil who you've decided are in the wrong and deserve violence because you've decided they're "poshos."

Did the street homeless woman who was interviewed on the news talking about her own fears and sense of being extremely vulnerable appear "posh" to you?

I haven't seen it

What you actually said:
"For all we know the protestors in the park could have been pissed out of their brains and up for fight, drunk and disorderly even."

They could have been drinking all day. Who knows but my point was no one would accuse them of it would they?

Not a single word about class or how middle class women are treated differently from working class women.

Read it again

That's massive revisionism. Some of your earlier rants did not mention one word about the North, class or geographic disparity, or working class women. It was just nasty, dishonest rants aimed at attacking the women attending the vigil who you've decided are in the wrong and deserve violence because you've decided they're "poshos

I have not said they deserved violence. I said they did not receive any violence.

They were protesting. They have said themselves they were "protesting"

I find it hard to summon up any sympathy for organised womens groups who have consistently ignored what's happening to women and girls in the north. Girls, tens of thousands of them, tortured, gang raped, trafficked for prostitution and in some cases murdered. WHERE WERE YOUR VIGILS AMD PROTESTS THEN?

But we can't have "the debate" with them, them meaning liberal progressive left wing feminists.

I dont actually feel i can have a debate with you as you just seem to be trying to derail the thread. I'm not even.sure what point you're trying to make

This isnt about left v right or WC v MC.or the north v London. It's about violence to women by men and our right to stand up and say "Enough is enough". For some reason you seem to think that is unreasonable

I've just seen your.most recent post. I dont think you'll find a MNetter who isnt appalled by what happen in Rochdale. I see your point about protests and vigils not being organised for that and I can see why you think no one cares about the north. I agree that lots of women have been abducted and murdered by men and very rarely has there been a response like this.

I do get where you are coming from now but I think (and hope) this movement can be good for all of us regardless of where we are in the country or what class we are.

It's about violence to women by men and our right to stand up and say "Enough is enough".

I wholeheartedly agree

For some reason you seem to think that is unreasonable

No. What's unreasonable is womens groups completely ignoring what's happening in the north.

For what it's worth, Helena Edwards, a friend of Sarah Everard wrote this on Saturday:
^'This is not what Sarah would have wanted
I think my friend would have been unsettled at how her death has been politicised.'^

www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/13/this-is-not-what-sarah-would-have-wanted/

Apologies if it's been posted already in this thread.

Covid stuff aside, I think that a protest should have been separate to the vigil, perhaps by a few days. There is the need, emotionally and intellectually for both, and to my mind, two events would have been the best way to honour the woman at the centre of this and protest violence towards women.

@ruaille - they also have expressed their gratitude to the police during the investigation. Positive change is what is needed. Which to me included following the wishes of the reclaim these streets organisers.

Urge all to contribute to their go fund me page.

@MercyBooth @youvegottenminuteslynn
www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/13/this-is-not-what-sarah-would-have-wanted/

[quote BarometerTV]**@MercyBooth* @youvegottenminuteslynn*
www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/13/this-is-not-what-sarah-would-have-wanted/[/quote]
I totally appreciate her friends perspective on this. Posters were saying incorrectly however that Sarah's family said they did not want it to go ahead, when in fact they said they were touched and defended it going ahead. Her family did not say they didn't agree with it, either before or after, but some posters were determined to use Sarah's poor family as a sort of gotcha moment by saying confidently and repeatedly something that wasn't the case, which felt in really poor taste especially as there was no trace online of them saying such a thing. Because they didn't. I really feel for her friend and see her point of view also even though I think I would feel the way the family does rather than the way she does. She has every right to every word of that article, just as Sarah's family have every right to every word of their comments.

@youvegottenminuteslynn yes - I thought a vigil was totally appropriate. But some went to protest, defied the police and turned it into a political agenda.

[quote BarometerTV]@youvegottenminuteslynn yes - I thought a vigil was totally appropriate. But some went to protest, defied the police and turned it into a political agenda.[/quote]
I understand you feel that way. The point me and others were challenging was a number of previous posters confidentially asserting as fact that Sarah's family didn't agree with the event. They lent their support to it after it had happened, so those posters said something untrue and IMO used a false perception of how the family felt to lend weight to their personal opinion. Which I felt was in spectacularly bad taste and odd when a simple google showed they hadn't said such a thing beforehand and in fact thanked attendees afterwards explicitly defended them too.

Andrea Everard said of the crowd: “All they were doing was showing support for Sarah and other women victims of appalling crime.
“I hope Sarah’s death can bring about some positive change.”

Whatever one's opinion on the event, it was not on for people to confidently and repeatedly state Sarah's family had said something they didn't.

@youvegottenminuteslynn completely agree - positive change.

She was a peaceful. This is what peaceful people do. They do not react, they breathe and are calm. Knowing that they are right and the force against them is wrong

But as we know, context is everything. This behaviour may allow you to hold her up as a saint but by doing nothing, she was likely ignoring police public safety instructions and therefore breaking the law. And should have been arrested. However righteous she felt.

Disagreeing with someone even challenging them is not a personal attack! I take offence at the insinuation to be honest

I dont actually feel i can have a debate with you as you just seem to be trying to derail the thread.

I’d agree with that

Debate the issues by all means, even rant about perceived unfairness but don’t accuse people of not caring based on the actions or inactions of others and assume what we think and feel