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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Priti Patel wants to ban protest. Bill going through this week.

258 replies

flashbac · 14/03/2021 08:22

The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill is some scary looking stuff. 10 year sentence for being at any protest that, amongst other things, causes or is at risk of causing 'serious annoyance'. That's all protests then is it?
The right to protest is the cornerstone of every democracy.
Aibu to be scared about where this is heading?

OP posts:
Bluethrough · 15/03/2021 12:24

Most protests will be unaffected by this law. The law is to stop disruptive protests - thugs smashing shop windows and setting cars on fire, idiots supergluing themselves to trains, that sort of thing

The riot is how change can happen, poll tax, womens vote, corn laws.... the french over throwing a repessive and cruel monarchy, the peoples of eastern europe riding themselves of the Soviets.

We all support the Burmese or the HK students but we are now taking away the right to protest in a meaningful way, no one took any notice of the Iraq war or Brexit protests because they were peaceful but had they smashed up central london?

you might not care about the destruction of the planet but many do and being able to make your point is an essential part of our democracy.

At the end of the day, if the govt act properly, riots don't happen.

Out right criminality has a host of laws and sentences to curb it.

People say Johnson is a libertarian, i say he is the opposite, a dictator who cannot stand any opposition.

Bourbonic · 15/03/2021 13:49

I'm not really sure what angle you're coming from Lex but covid laws make gatherings including protests illegal just now.

It was decided at every level that the vigil could not be legally sanctioned. Whether those arrested end up being charged is sort of irrelevant, and not really any different to any other protest in that regard either.

Graphista · 15/03/2021 14:11

@Bourbonic neither the vigil nor protests have yet been completely outlawed even under covid regs

Graphista · 15/03/2021 14:12

@HOkieCOkie do you even understand that many of the rights you currently benefit from were gained due to the actions of protestors? Especially if you're a woman!

Banning protest massively stifles civil liberties and the possibility of gaining fair treatment for all by the state.

What kind of state do you think bans such things?

It's places like China, North Korea, Russia, Iran...

Do you REALLY want to live in a country like those?!

Think this couldn't happen to you? That may be so but then you've just revealed what an 'I'm alright jack', 'don't give a shit about others' person you are.

Yep! And attitudes like this absolutely call to mind the poem by Niemöller!

The way to enact change is at the ballot box.

That too assumes certain facts are in place - which there is some evidence already is not the case in the Uk, not to mention the flaws in the FPTP system

In addition this govt is already considering removing postal votes and making it so only those with photo ID can vote (which is expensive and for some groups virtually impossible to obtain), we can’t enact change at the ballot box if we’re prevented from voting!

The police force has been defunded for years. The court system has been defunded for years

Just watch the funding "suddenly become available" just for this!

but they don't compare to the real thing

They are far too easily ignored!

Exactly

@User133847 - here's a question, if protests are so useless and pointless - why do you think they want to stop them?!

This is what a police state looks like

Precisely

Police states rarely occur overnight, even where there's coups, there's a buildup, there are signs.

My Mp has responded that he will be voting against the bill, as I thought he would. He agrees it is disproportionate and oppressive.

people marching holding placards doesn't bother them.

Really? Then why does this bill contain clauses that would outlaw exactly this?

Most protests will be unaffected by this law.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Having read the bill most protests WILL be affected by this law

The law is to stop disruptive protests - thugs smashing shop windows and setting cars on fire, idiots supergluing themselves to trains, that sort of thing.

We already have laws to deal with more extreme behaviour like this, plenty of them!

who don't care about a particular cause from the minority who want to force them to.

That's the whole point of a protest! To get the apathetic and unaware to know, to alert people to injustices and to show in physical numbers how many people hold that same view.

How that can possibly be a bad thing I really don't know

not even the Guardian, which, for all its faults, was a liberal voice

I think "was" is the operative word here. It's long since abandoned its liberal stance

Frankly it’s desperate agreed

@CrunchyBiscs on another thread regarding the vigil and I believe even some reporters and MPs are backing this up, there are multiple reports that women SITTING in SILENCE were grabbed and roughly handled by police at the vigil, including a homeless woman and a disabled woman who was pushed off her crutches! WHILE obeying a direction from the police to move - she simply wasn’t moving as fast as they wanted because she was disabled!

Why would they act so foolishly and apparently against their own interests? Because they are feeling defensive due to one of their own being accused and their own force under scrutiny for protecting him from other prior alleged offences AND because they arrogantly think they can get away with it

But I think your use of the words thugs and idiots reveals what side you are on.

Absolutely.

I’ve been on protests and marches and to vigils in the past. I am a 5’2”, softly spoken irl, disabled woman, I have never broken the law. I have witnessed police officers being over zealous and over stepping their bounds and even arresting people who’d done absolutely nothing wrong who were then released without charge without even an official warning and apologised to. Because this is not uncommon, it’s not new, such police behaviour has been an issue for literally ages, ever since the police came into being.

Based upon this interpretation, "the minority" who have no voice anywhere else, are being silenced and will no longer have a platform to raise awareness to their issues & concerns.

This!

This is why such laws are oppressive and dangerous

It makes it illegal to stand outside parliament as an individual and shout your opinion. Illegal. How is that not a terrifying restriction of our rights???

It IS absolutely terrifying

Frazzled2207 · 15/03/2021 14:20

@HOkieCOkie do you even understand that many of the rights you currently benefit from were gained due to the actions of protestors? Especially if you're a woman!

Indeed - why don't you google what the Sugragettes actually did. This bill says we could be sent to prison for 10 years for doing exactly what they did. Do you want to come back and argue that they shouldn't have done it? good luck with that

MercyBooth · 15/03/2021 16:16

@Bourbonic Its disrespectful to put words in her familys mouth.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/14338769/sarah-everards-family-call-for-positive-change/amp/

"Andrea Everard said of the crowd: “All they were doing was showing support for Sarah and other women victims of appalling crime.
“I hope Sarah’s death can bring about some positive change.”

Nick said: “We’re grateful for all the love. We appreciate that Kate went. The support is overwhelming. Thank you to everybody.”

LexMitior · 15/03/2021 16:24

@Bourbonic

I'm not really sure what angle you're coming from Lex but covid laws make gatherings including protests illegal just now.

It was decided at every level that the vigil could not be legally sanctioned. Whether those arrested end up being charged is sort of irrelevant, and not really any different to any other protest in that regard either.

You don’t know what happened at the high court then? You know that Covid regs definitely prohibit protest then?

The High Court and the police could do with your opinion. I think you are just repeating what you’ve read.

LexMitior · 15/03/2021 16:25

And why does it not matter that these women aren’t charged? I’d say that there was a clear link between that likely outcome and the Bill being introduced today.

Or would you like to tell me the relevant different degrees of legality of COVID regs v actual primary law?

MercyBooth · 15/03/2021 16:28

So going by the argument being put forward in favour of this new Bill i wonder if any can explain why it wasnt put forward after the 2011 riots.

BonnieDundee · 15/03/2021 17:18

Most protests will be unaffected by this law

The Home Secretary gets the final say on what protests are allowed. Doesnt that bother you? especially considering who the current incumbent is

Bourbonic · 15/03/2021 18:18

@Graphista can you please provide a link to a proposal to remove postal votes? As I recall it was suggested some 3 or so years ago on the basis of potential ballot fraud and dismissed outright.

Bourbonic · 15/03/2021 18:27

@MercyBooth

So going by the argument being put forward in favour of this new Bill i wonder if any can explain why it wasnt put forward after the 2011 riots.
You'd have to put that question to the government at the time really. Theresa May was home secretary so she'd be the one to tell you why it wasn't proposed.
Bourbonic · 15/03/2021 18:30

@LexMitior

And why does it not matter that these women aren’t charged? I’d say that there was a clear link between that likely outcome and the Bill being introduced today.

Or would you like to tell me the relevant different degrees of legality of COVID regs v actual primary law?

I don't think so, as charges related to protests are few and far between generally.

Covid law is an act, not a set of regs or guidelines, which draws from already existing primary law. The addition of schedule 22 allows for limits on gatherings based on any criteria as defined by the government.

As the High Court judge refused to agree with the organisers and referred to the laws which already define gatherings as not allowed, I'd say that was fairly conclusive in them being illegal, no?

Dustyboots · 15/03/2021 18:33

Wow. Majority of mumsnetters want our human rights and freedom of speech to be taken away. They actively want this.

Are you reading this Boris and Priti. You’re being given the go ahead. You’ve got free reign.

In which direction is our country currently heading? Away from democracy - towards autocracy. Our kids will not thank us for this.

Love2cycle · 15/03/2021 18:37

@Donotfeedthebears

It’s almost as though the Meghan Markle vs the royal family stuff is being used as a distraction...
Yep I agree and also have been thinking worse things being used as a distraction.
CrunchyBiscs · 15/03/2021 18:38

Extinction Rebellion brought central London to a standstill jeopardising the jobs of ordinary Londoners - they've been through enough with Covid - let normal life resume without issue mad protesters being allowed to ruin their living.
This is what the legislation would put a stop to. Londoners should support it.

Dustyboots · 15/03/2021 18:42

Remember Boris investing in those water canon?

Ever since then I wondered what his game was. Back then he was mayor of London but it was such a strange thing to do.

His bafoon, teddy bear image is a hoax, that’s for sure.

MercyBooth · 15/03/2021 18:47

@Bourbonic I suspect seeing what they have got away with re. Covid has made them more bold.

XR did make me angry when they held up the trains at Canning Town but this Bill is not the answer.

LexMitior · 15/03/2021 18:48

I don't think so, as charges related to protests are few and far between generally.

I agree - they are usually tactical to get rid of protesters in practice. But in a small scale event, with very few arrests, I think we can say in this case the charges are very very unlikely to be made, aren't they? And that would be because of lack of evidence.

Of course if this Bill went ahead, that wouldn't be a problem...

Covid law is an act, not a set of regs or guidelines, which draws from already existing primary law. The addition of schedule 22 allows for limits on gatherings based on any criteria as defined by the government.

That doesn't mean it is lawful, just that the government claims the power to say so. Otherwise, I would say that the High Court would have felt empowered to side with the police.

As the High Court judge refused to agree with the organisers and referred to the laws which already define gatherings as not allowed, I'd say that was fairly conclusive in them being illegal, no?

HC also refused to agree with the police either and did not conclude matters - so where does that leave your argument?

LexMitior · 15/03/2021 18:51

@CrunchyBiscs

Extinction Rebellion brought central London to a standstill jeopardising the jobs of ordinary Londoners - they've been through enough with Covid - let normal life resume without issue mad protesters being allowed to ruin their living. This is what the legislation would put a stop to. Londoners should support it.
I won't support it - its tantamount to letting the Government and the police decide who offends them. I may not like BLM, or XR, but criminal offences are about harm, the seriousness of it, not annoyance or inconvenience. The redefining of those words into the criminal sphere, for a protest involving one person is totally disproportionate.

Perhaps later generations will be less happy with the decision to throw basic freedoms away on the basis of a few young idiots in Canning Town.

MercyBooth · 15/03/2021 18:54

@LexMitior i agree. If you watch the vid the ppl on the way to work dealt with it.

Reinventinganna · 15/03/2021 19:11

‘It's not a police state, it's just protecting the majority who don't care about a particular cause from the minority who want to force them to’

Next time you want to protest to protect wildlife in your area or you want to protest against a kfc being built outside your dc school you won’t be able to. Will you care then?

Funny how it’s just as nursing unions are talking about protesting for fair pay.

Bourbonic · 15/03/2021 20:11

@LexMitior the judge didn't agree with the police because that was not what they were there to pass judgement on, and thus it would be wrong for them to make comment which would be deduced as doing so.

They found that the case against the MET police had no basis in our laws. Thus they've upheld the law and consequently found in favour of the police, yes?

lightand · 15/03/2021 20:43

Bumping. Not noticed this thread before now.
Is the vote tomorrow?

Frazzled2207 · 15/03/2021 20:59

@lightand
Yes
They are debating now
There is a suitably noisy “kill the Bill”‘protest going on outside.
MS media just not interested 😡

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