That women of colour face a combination of racism and misogyny

[Sprining]

...that is a very toxic cocktail.

And are often not supported by a large section of white women (who are often part of the racism problem) and a large section of BAME men (who are often part of the sexism problem)

And attractive, successful ethnic minority women are brutally targeted, often to the detriment of their me al health. Really glad for Meghan Markle, Serena Williams and Jameela for bringing this to the fore.

Do you agree?

Not this shit again.

Most people DO NOT CARE.

I don’t care if someone is white, black, Asian, male, female, homosexual, heterosexual, trans,, whatever whatever.

It’s something you have created into a bigger thing in your mind.

Sadly, I think you're right that most people don't care, @Zebraaa. That's the problem.

The fact that people don't care doesn't make the problem any less real. People are not imagining it.

Of course they do.

@dontdisturbmenow

I don't k is if I agree, but I really dislike Serena as a person. Actually got to see how she behaves in real life and her superior, condescending attitude was quite staggering. Couldn't care less what colour of skin she has, I don't like people who act like she did that day.

I hope it's still ok to not like someone because of the person they are rather than their skin colour!

Going back to your original comment, the issue is not that you don’t like her. It is that you have come on a thread about black women dealing with racism and misogyny (I think your suggesting you doubt that is the case but it might be a typo) in order to air your dislike of Serena Williams in a way that invokes the tired “Black Women are Bullies” stereotype. Reality check: you are the one who brought race into it. You could have just thought she not nice and left it at that but you chose to post on here and you chose your words.

When it was pointed out to you, a two second google search would have shown why your statement was problematic and the consequences of perpetuating that stereotype. Do not be disingenuous, it’s not about defending your right to not like people. That is just a dismissive bs you’ve used to impose the idea that the offending party should control the narrative around racism to allow them to escape accountability.

I don’t care if someone is white, black, Asian, male, female, homosexual, heterosexual, trans,, whatever whatever.

And attitudes such as this really uphold systemic racism and sexism.

OP Yanbu.

@dontdisturbmenow

I think this thread proves my concern that the moment you voice not liking someone and that someone happens to be black or mixed, you are going to be labelled as racist, no matter the reasons for disliking them. Saying the same thing about a white person somehow seems absolutely fine though.

Sadly this has led many people not daring saying anything at all and an assumption that this silence means endorsement.

It's irreverent whether you like someone or not... It's about whether they face prejudice and racism. Unless you're somehow implying they deserve it because you don't like their personality?

Yes, lost count of the amount of white women who would ignore me (hijab wearing South Asian woman) and go straight to talking to my DH or my DS if we were out together. My DSis used to live in a naice part of London and any time she said hello to the middle class white female neighbours, she would get ignored but they would willingly strike up a conversation with DBil.

I do believe BAME men are accepted more willingly in the workplace (and therefore more likely to be promoted) than BAME women.

@wonderstuff

There was a Sharon Osbourne interview I was a clip of, she was crying because she felt she'd been seen as racist by association as her black friend discussed PM being racist towards MM. Gina Yhsree (poor spelling sorry) called into the program and called her out and was very articulate.

I felt watching it that it must be exhausting to be a black woman. Being a white woman this week I feel emotional and ground down by persistent sexism in society, to be dealing with racism too must be quite a burden.

This.

Interesting point of view @Zebraaa. You dont care so - what? Does the double burden of racism and sexism inflicted on black women cease to exist because it doesnt personally interest you? Why would the fact that you find it tedious mean that they have inflated its effect?

Could it be that racism exists despite your lack of interest?

As a white woman I have been shocked by the
racism against black/mixed women on MN.
When one reads the threads about Meghan and Kate one becomes aware of the rather thinly veiled racism of some posters.
There was a thread yesterday where posters came out with the usual racist trope. Kate was described as elegant , dignified, quiet while Meghan was a social climber, gold digger,
brash and aggressive. Some may argue that it is simply that they don’t like Meghan and it is a personality rather than a race issue
However, when these posters were asked to explain exactly what made Meghan ‘brash’ and ‘aggressive’ they were unable to answer
This suggest that at the root of their dislike was a bias against her based on her race.
Before any racist come on and describe me as being a ‘woke’ white woman. If woke means recognising inequalities and challenging them, then I am proud to be woke

I think the point here is that it usually women and especially women of colour who are called arrogant or uppity
That's so not true! Many white tennis players, to compare directly, have been accused or being arrogant and rude, as men for that matter. Sharapova certainly got flamed for her attitude, long before her positive test.

would you have picked me up if I'd mentioned I disliked Sharapova because of her condescending attitude (can't comment, be we met her). Of course not, she's white, so couldn't be a racist view!

@Zebraaa

Not this shit again.

Most people DO NOT CARE.

I don’t care if someone is white, black, Asian, male, female, homosexual, heterosexual, trans,, whatever whatever.

It’s something you have created into a bigger thing in your mind.

Folks - this post shows how difficult it will be to stamp out racism when some refuse to even acknowledge that it exists

Yes, and for the not caring...is it ok then we don’t care about sexism and misogyny?

Male aggression and misogyny towards women, what’s that?

Women can be aggressive towards women too and I heard about this one case from a friend of a friend that a woman raped a woman.

So now I’m gender blind and don’t really see misogyny 🙄

@Sprining

While people turn one another within communities, I think women who have faced the toxic combination of racism and sexism at the same time, know how utterly debilitating it can be.

And how lonely it is. Successful ethnic monitory women get the brunt of “who do you think you are?” type bullying from maj women and men

yep this is so shit, I've been told I'm getting above my station?

It's irreverent whether you like someone or not... It's about whether they face prejudice and racism. Unless you're somehow implying they deserve it because you don't like their personality?

I’ve already stated upthread that whether we like someone or not, this doesn’t detract from them probably having received sexism and racism, however I don’t think that poster was saying it doesn’t matter if someone is discriminated against if we don’t like them.

I think the point was the tendency to assume that if you don’t like someone who is black, it must be due to racism and not because that person has acted in a way which has the dislike.

Sometimes, yes, it will be because of subconscious bias against black people. But sometimes it will actually be nothing to do with racism and everything to do with not liking the person.

@Zebraaa

Not this shit again.

Most people DO NOT CARE.

I don’t care if someone is white, black, Asian, male, female, homosexual, heterosexual, trans,, whatever whatever.

It’s something you have created into a bigger thing in your mind.

The problem is that in not acknowledging these characteristics and considering the prejudice and disadvantage they might bring, it becomes difficult if not impossible to address the structural inequality in our society.

Being “colour blind” actually doesn’t result in black people being treated equally because racism means they don’t get to start from the same position as white people.

But in a discussion about whether black women face a double whammy with racism and sexism - it's still irrelevant whether you like them! I don't understand in the context of this discussion why the poster started talking about disliking Serena Williams - I don't care if you like her or not - she has faced horrendous abuse from both sides, your own preference is immaterial.

There are some women I'm not keen on but that has no bearing on the fact they will have experienced sexism.

You are not being unreasonable. I was raised in an exceptionally racist place that is still super racist. Some parts of the UK have barely moved on from the stereotypes of the 50s. It's a massive reason I wouldn't move back (am white but just find it unbearable).

Ps wish I had the stratospheric talent and dedication of Serena. She is confident and has certainly earned that right.

@Zebraaa

Not this shit again.

Most people DO NOT CARE.

I don’t care if someone is white, black, Asian, male, female, homosexual, heterosexual, trans,, whatever whatever.

It’s something you have created into a bigger thing in your mind.

F*cking hell. Say how you really feel why don't you.

Yes, someone who has multiple defining features that are at the receiving end of negative prejudices and descrimination will have it worst that someone with just one feature.

And while BAME women have it worse than white women, a disabled white woman may have it worse than the BAME woman next to her, but then the is the disabled BAME woman who is also a lesbian.

However, we need to pull together here and try and break down our divisions. Many white women will stand with you, many more than not I imagine. Whilst racism is a scourge on our society I definitely believe that there are more "non-racist" and "anti-racist" than racists.

We can fight together and shine spotlights on each of the causes without that being considered to take away from the other causes. It was right to shine the light on BLM and bat away the whataboutary. It is fine to now shine that on sexism and male violence, it does not negate the experience of BAME women and it does not mean that we don't get it. We do,. Your experiences are real and valid and recognised. We stand with you.

Yes i agree. Its a toxic mix.

It would be nice to focus on Serena raising awareness of black maternal health really rather than her personality.

And in other news, the Pope is a Catholic.

I really hope that eventually we can drop the catch all 'BAME' acronym that helpfully lumps everyone who essentially isn't white together as one group.

@MildredPuppy

Yes i agree. Its a toxic mix.

It would be nice to focus on Serena raising awareness of black maternal health really rather than her personality.

Absolutely

When a man says "I don't like x woman because she's over-ambitious, demanding, talkative, other stereotypes used to tear women down", I'm pretty sure he gets to dislike someone but as a woman, your radar will go up slightly or a lot.

It could be that this woman really happens to be all of that or it could well be that as usual, this woman is yet again all these things many men seem to 'find' wrong about a woman; and if you really look into it, you'll find the woman is simply as ambitious or driven as the next man, says what she wants, speaks because she has something to say, etc.

He decides the side he belongs but that doesn't mean you don't get to wonder which it is.