George Clooney calling for repatriation of Parthenon Marbles

[Dodgypainting]

And thinks because he made the film ‘Monument Men’ he is qualified to speak on this? Is it one more bandwagon he wants to jump on along with trying to sort out Sudan, the Environment, the Syrian refugee crisis and BLM. Why does he feel qualified to step into some of the most sensitive situations on the planet as a white guy with no expertise in the complex and sensitive issues he speaks out on? It’s ok to raise awareness but he should leave his wife to act on behalf of the Greek government re The Marbles and the plight of the Yazidis as she actually knows what she’s talking about. Where is the fear of doing more harm then good whenever these celebs speak out on some of their pet projects?

My realisation about the BM came in holiday in Greece, on an English language of guided tour of a museum, not usually available to tourists rather than scholars.

The 'tour guide' was a famous name who dealt very gently with the many people on the tour who had no idea about the history of the place.

At the end, one English voice asked why all the statues and artefacts were so badly damaged, where could we go to see all the whole ones?

In the British Museum came the answer.

By what logic is the British Museum the more rightful owner of the Rosetta Stone than the Egyptian people?

Egypt has built a fabulous museum to house all the antiquities it is managing to reclaim from other countries. Yes, the country has gone through all sorts of change and evolution over the centuries, but 'Egypt' as a culture and civilisation has existed for thousands of years. The Rosetta Stone is an important part of that story. Why does the British Museum have a greater claim to it?

I mean yes, of course there are complicated issues of who exactly you return an object to. That doesn't make the British Museum the rightful owner. There are ways to sort these things out.

@Dodgypainting

But why does he feel he is going to be listened to? He’s an actor. It’s his wife’s case.

Well, you listened. I also think we should return them - am I allowed? I'm not an actor but I don't know if I'm on the approved list of people who are allowed opinions...

By what logic are those currently residing in the same geographical land as the many-times destroyed and forgotten people more fit holders than the people who took such pains and effort to be able to retell the story of the creators?

Ideally there would be regular rotations of all these artefacts around all those who hold the heritage valuable. As long as they can be kept safe. Years ago there was a lot of excitement about the potential of IT and virtuality to make all these artefacts and ancient sites more accessible. I don’t know what happened to it.

All of these current faddy calls for meaningless ‘repatriations’ are about questions of power between current nations, not history or heritage at all. Humans have always used prestige objects that way. Unfortunately lines of thinking are blurred.

Years ago there was a lot of excitement about the potential of IT and virtuality to make all these artefacts and ancient sites more accessible. I don’t know what happened to it.

I've used a VR headset and google earth to walk around Ephesus and it's very good. In some ways it was preferable to walking around it in 40 degree heat and no shade! I think if it could be properly combined with information (audio tracks, chat boxes to ask questions?) it could become a brilliant way of making virtual visits.

Oh come on. Really, because a couple Brits stole the Rosetta Stone and deciphered it, they have more right to it than the descendants of that civilisation?

Seriously, go to Egypt and tell people they are just 'residing in the same place' as the ancient Egyptians, that they have no right to that heritage. That there is no continuity at all in Egyptian history. That ancient Egyptian civilisation was 'completely forgotten' in Egypt and so they deserve to lose their heritage.

People liked to make these arguments during the colonial era, shame to still see them trotted out.

The problem for the British Museum is that if they return the marbles, then they don't really have any argument against returning the rest of their looted artefacts, either now, or at some point in the future.

Of course they should be returned, but I can see why the BM are reticent about it.

Actually, for anybody interested in the VR, I've just remembered a major issue — if you're using google earth and get travel sick, close your eyes when it swoops you about. It made me feel very unwell!

By what logic is the British Museum the more rightful owner of the Rosetta Stone than the Egyptian people?

The British stole it from the French in fact. It would probably be in Paris now, not Egypt.

Interestingly the head of the lovely new museum in Egypt says that he believes it will never come back to Egypt, but that actually to have ancient Egyptian artefacts in museums around the world will spark and interest and will encourage people to visit Egypt and the museums and archaeological sites there.

The same argument has been made about the Parthenon sculptures.

If you repatriate these items why not everything? Not everyone can afford to travel the world looking at the beautiful historical items from other cultures and countries, a lot of people would lose out.

@SixesAndEights

The problem for the British Museum is that if they return the marbles, then they don't really have any argument against returning the rest of their looted artefacts, either now, or at some point in the future.

Of course they should be returned, but I can see why the BM are reticent about it.

This is exactly why no one will ever return anything. Whatever arguments they make about legalities and logistics, at heart it is just about money and bragging rights. It always has been.

There is no real debate about whether the Benin Bronzes were legitimately taken, for example, and yet the Museum still will not return them because they are so valuable.

Wow. The Americans are on an absolute crusade to bring the British to book this week.

In an aside, in my younger days, not having access to google and living far from the British Museum, I though the Parthenon Marbles were...well...marbles. Didn’t understand the fuss over them.

If you repatriate these items why not everything? Not everyone can afford to travel the world looking at the beautiful historical items from other cultures and countries, a lot of people would lose out.

But most people in Egypt and Iraq and Nigeria and India and Jamaica (and...and...and...) can't afford to come to London to see their own heritage. Is that fair?

Agree with George, and while we're at it also return the Kohinoor diamond to India where it belongs.

@dreamingbohemian

The British Museum is a palace of stolen loot.

They won't return the Rosetta Stone to Egypt.
They have a giant Easter Island statue that they refuse to return despite the islanders begging to be reunited with what they see as a lost family member.
They have more than 900 items from the Benin Bronzes.
Sacred Buddha heads decapitated from ancient temples in Indonesia.
All the artefacts spirited out of Mesopotamia's oldest cities

The list is endless. For several hundred years the British went around the world taking whatever they liked and now they basically rely on the law of 'finders, keepers' to justify it. It's ridiculous.

Totally agree with this. There's also the white saviour attitude of "oh they'd have just damaged them/they don't have anywhere suitable to keep them", which is basically an excuse for retaining everything.

I've worked in the cultural heritage sector. Quite a large proportion of exhibits are facsimiles of the original. Joe Public would never tell the difference - so why not send the originals back?

When the Irish return Scotland to descendants of the Picts.

What??????????

Don’t disagree with him, but if I were Amal Clooney and my husband started arguing my case for me, I’d tell him to piss off and leave it to me as the experienced and highly successful advocate.

If you repatriate these items why not everything? Not everyone can afford to travel the world looking at the beautiful historical items from other cultures and countries, a lot of people would lose out.

So it's fine for other people to travel (including people actually from the places these treasures originated from) but not for the Great British Public. Noted.

Haven't read full thread so this may have been mentioned. When George Clooney first publicly demanded the marbles be returned, he misremembered where they came from and called them (several times) the "err Pantheon marbles". Obviously had not dwelt much on the subject before. This was in 2014. The following year Amal was dropped from the legal team working for the Greeks on the matter. Not sure if she has been rehired.

ChazP. That’s how I feel. So it’s International women’s day and we get a male actor who dropped out of uni spouting forth about a case his lawyer wife has been working on for years. Just leave her to it.

He’s right. Using his fame for good cause.

I've worked in the cultural heritage sector. Quite a large proportion of exhibits are facsimiles of the original. Joe Public would never tell the difference - so why not send the originals back?

Exactly.

An Easter Island delegation offered to make a replica statue for the British Museum so they could have the original returned -- again, they see this statue as family, as a bringer of peace to their community. No luck.

@Bookworm65

When the Irish return Scotland to descendants of the Picts.

What??????????

And the English return Stonehenge to Wales from where it came from.

And Morocco, Algeria, Libya and Egypt compensate Irish families for sailing into Ireland and taking their ancestors as slaves.

Yes I bet Amal is devastated that her world-famous husband is raising awareness about her work. What a bastard.