George Clooney calling for repatriation of Parthenon Marbles

[Dodgypainting]

And thinks because he made the film ‘Monument Men’ he is qualified to speak on this? Is it one more bandwagon he wants to jump on along with trying to sort out Sudan, the Environment, the Syrian refugee crisis and BLM. Why does he feel qualified to step into some of the most sensitive situations on the planet as a white guy with no expertise in the complex and sensitive issues he speaks out on? It’s ok to raise awareness but he should leave his wife to act on behalf of the Greek government re The Marbles and the plight of the Yazidis as she actually knows what she’s talking about. Where is the fear of doing more harm then good whenever these celebs speak out on some of their pet projects?

I know it's not the point of the thread, but how can the Irish give Scotland to anybody?

I don't think that celebrities making public things of these types of questions is useful.

He's obviously entitled to his view, just like anyone is, but yeah, who cares what he thinks about this?

I'm pretty against moving antiquities out of the places they belong now and I think this happens far too often and a lot of museums are kind of complicit. But I'm a lot less fussed about historical instances of it, historical movement of artefacts is actually part of the movement of history, whatever the cause, and it's difficult to draw a clear line around how far back one ought to go.

“All of Elgin's collection of antiquities was then transported to Britain. His actions were thoroughly investigated by a Parliamentary Select Committee in 1816 and found to be entirely legal, prior to the sculptures entering the collection of the British Museum by Act of Parliament."

Notably a British parliamentary select committee. Also if I remember rightly when he “obtained permission” there were threats and bribes involved. It’s all thoroughly dodgy.

His actions were thoroughly investigated by a Parliamentary Select Committee in 1816 and found to be entirely legal

Slavery was still legal in 1816. A lot has changed since then.

@TheMarzipanDildo

“All of Elgin's collection of antiquities was then transported to Britain. His actions were thoroughly investigated by a Parliamentary Select Committee in 1816 and found to be entirely legal, prior to the sculptures entering the collection of the British Museum by Act of Parliament."

Notably a British parliamentary select committee. Also if I remember rightly when he “obtained permission” there were threats and bribes involved. It’s all thoroughly dodgy.

Lots of governments work on a bribe based system though. Not great but if that's where you are, you can't easily work outside of that.

I think the underlying questions about this are, how do we decide who is the legitimate authority in a country? Lots of countries have been ruled, either historically or today, by governments that were set up by invaders or factions. It would be difficult to point to any large nation that din't have that kind of experience right back to pre-history. It's easy to think of examples today as well. At what point is it ok to accept their governance or work with them? If they later leave, do all the arrangements they have made no longer hold? If you are a scientist or archeologist, working in that area, where does that leave you?

We'll return the marbles when European and African Americans return the USA to indigenous people

What in the ever living fuck?
Take African Americans out of your argument right now.

@VeniVidiWeeWee except no evidence of the "firman" was ever produced nor can copies be located in archives in Turkey to corroborate Elgin's account. He was a blatant thief who profited from his crime.

Even if such a document did exist, the Ottoman's had no right to 'gift' anything from the Greek Islands. Just another example of an Empire who rode roughshod over the countries they occupy and exploit (sound familiar?) The marbles were looted, just like most of the artifacts gained through the British Empire.

Good! They belong to Greece, not Britain. Too many stolen treasures in British museums.

@RunHobbitRun

If you're going to accuse someone of theft please produce some evidence.

I think we should return them

This is an interesting article from that rabid espouser of right wing views, The Guardian:

www.theguardian.com/education/2004/jul/21/highereducation.parthenon

@VeniVidiWeeWee get real! An Earl gained favour with a regime that had little consideration for the countries it "expanded" into and extracted priceless ancient artifacts without the permission of the country they belonged to. That's theft.

At no point in history did the Greek people agree to the removal of the marbles.

Elgin therefore stole the marbles. I'm not sure why that's so difficult to grasp. Oddly enough I can't produce photographic evidence of Elgin with a swag bag in the Parthenon, however Lord Byron who was around at the time publicly accused Elgin of looting. Unsurprisingly the British Government found in Elgin's favour...of course the British Government has never let a noble/politician get away with a crime before or since

@RunHobbitRun

I suggest you look at the Guardian's article I linked to above. Funnily enough LB does get a mention.

We'll return the marbles when European and African Americans return the USA to indigenous people

Who, the African Americans who were enslaved and transported there????!!!

I think he is perfectly reasonable to voice his opinion. As anyone is to disagree.

It is a valid point about whether a famous person speaking out in favour of a particular cause can help or hinder it.

I know it's not the point of the thread, but how can the Irish give Scotland to anybody?

I was wondering that too

@krustykittens

I know it's not the point of the thread, but how can the Irish give Scotland to anybody?

I missed that the first time I read the thread. I don't remember learning about the great invasion of the Irish to Scotland...though under normal (non-Covid) times, perhaps each time there is a Scotland v Ireland rugby match to be played in Murrayfield, it might feel like an Irish invasion so there might be that....but we leave, politely...I hope

We'll return the marbles when African Americans return the USA to indigenous people

blink blink blink

@TheKeatingFive
@lookitsmeagain

I think this is about the Irish and the Picts, but happy to be corrected.

See here: archive.archaeology.org/0107/abstracts/scotland.html

Something we should certainly return are all stolen human remains.

thewalrus.ca/grave-injustice/

The, er, peculiar post near the start of the thread has been deleted. Perhaps best not dignify it by further attention.

There’s always been a lot of emotion invested in these marbles. The main rational questions are whether they can be kept safe, in transit and destination, and how they should be shared around all the countries that share in the heritage of the original builders. The people who live in Greece now, 2500 years on, are not the original builders. All of the western world shares in the history of Greece. And let’s remember that for all the current emotive political excitement, these marbles would not now exist to argue about if they had not been removed.

The people who live in Greece now, 2500 years on, are not the original builders.

Oh fgs how ridiculous.

The ruins of the Parthenon are a stones throw from the museum that houses the remainder of the marbles. There’s a fabulous view of it from the windows. It’s a crying shame they aren’t all together in their original provenance.

dreamingbohemian mentioned the Rosetta Stone too.
The Rosetta Stone, like the rest of the heritage of ancient Egypt, would still be completely unknown if the French forces of Napoleon had not dug it up. The point of the Rosetta Stone is that it allowed, eventually after huge amounts of international work and collaboration, to decipher the writing and language of a culture long dead and forgotten. The people living in Egypt 1500 years ago forgot their 3000-yr long history then, when the Roman Empire subsumed it and first Christianity and then Islam went around destroying as much of previous heritage and knowledge as they could. Again, this length of time on, what does this concept of ‘repatriation’ mean at all?? Who are rightful owners, thousands of years and many generations and invasions later? The original creators are gone, many times over. These matters are more complex than current fashions or current nation states for that matter. I don’t know about Easter Island statues incidentally. Each should be looked at as an individual matter.

I don't know if hes right or wrong and frankly I don't care.

However I am more than happy to offer my services to George to take them back to Greece (with him of course!)

Imagine a week in Athens with George Clooney, that's worth two weeks quarantine.