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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do you WANT longer school days and shorter school holidays?

780 replies

shadowlily · 07/03/2021 12:49

YABU- yes I want schools to have longer school days and shorter holidays

YANBU- no I'd rather keep the hours/terms we have.

I keep seeing this is being discussed in the media today, do you think it's likely to happen? Personally I think kids would benefit more from the summer holiday and being able to catch up on the activities they've missed and socialisation with friends. They've been home schooled to keep up with the curriculum (for the most part! I know this might be a contentious statement for some!) but nothing has replaced the play dates, day trips, parties etc. they have missed.

What do you think?

OP posts:
numberoneson · 09/03/2021 00:15

Absolutely not - many kids really loathe school and have a hard time coping with it .. to lengthen their school day and shorten their holidays would be a form of torture to them.

Chichiboo · 09/03/2021 00:20

No to longer school days but I think we could easily shave the holidays a little bit

Kazzyhoward · 09/03/2021 00:21

@PolkadotZebras

No. The curriculum, its purpose and the way it is taught needs complete overhaul. What is actually taught in school does not require more time anyway. For example, we are told 4 or 5 A levels over two years is strenuous. I did an entire A level course in two weeks or home study alone and got an A in the exams.

Likewise the actual information or skills imparted in years 7-11 could have been covered in two years with time to spare without all of the wasted time. And then much more could have been learned. It's too constraining, poor quality, one size fits all approach and incredibly slow paced, and importantly stifles creativity. School was frustrating and boring and almost destroyed my desire to learn anything. I honestly feel I'd have learned far more just studying on my own at home for 5 years than being at secondary school, and it would have been far less stressful.

In a world where we are moving towards increasing technology, more free time etc, creativity and original thought is required. This requires a completely different type of education to the one we have which was designed to fit Victorian industrial society. Creativity requires space for thought, not more institutionalisation and forced interaction. We have a chance now to reimagine it and do something that is useful instead of just repeating what's been done before. I hope we do so.

I agree so much with what Sir Ken Robinson said here, even though it was some time ago.

[[https://www.ted.com/talks/sir]]kennrobinsondooschoolskilll_creativity/up-next

I agree with every word of your post and could say the same. Can't believe it takes so many lessons to do so little. But then again, a lot of lessons are wasted when teachers are absent, or when half a class is off on a school trip or practising for a sport/drama event, and the days before end of term when it's filling time doing quizzes or watching videos. I did an English A level in one year at college - 90 minutes per week (one evening) - we covered the whole course, studied 4 books and a poetry anthology and got a grade A - yet at school it's 3 times that amount of time per year and they have 2 years so 6 times the amount of time (my son did it in sixth form and still they didn't have time to finish the course!)
Hm2020 · 09/03/2021 01:02

No way

Sankhomumof3 · 09/03/2021 01:19

My 3 kids start school at 8.45 and finish at 2.45-3pm. Primary school.
I think firstly if holidays were longer how would parents get time off??? Childcare costs would mean I have to leave my job.. Leading to financial crisis for me and my family. Its just not practical. - As for holidays... We don't go anywhere as we can't afford to. It's just less stressful to stay home and have day trips. I feel like a hamster on a wheel... Work, pay bills, stress about money... Repeat. Despite studying for years, qualifying for a job in healthcare, working my butt off I'm still always struggling financially. I feel as though money no longer goes very far. I'm sure many feel this way atm. The government cannot afford to be putting more pressure on hospital staff and taking us out of our jobs unless childcare becomes more affordable and available. Rant over. Sorry.

PolkadotZebras · 09/03/2021 01:26

@TheHoneyBadger

I appreciate much of what you say Polka but you can surely recognise that you were unusual amongst your peers? You can see that it would be very few kids who'd find it that easy to fly through content and get A's?

I share your frustrations in terms of my own secondary experience where at primary I'd been allowed to go ahead and no restraints placed on me and then got to secondary and sat around waiting for literally years to get to where I was at before I started. It was indeed frustrating and pointless feeling and I wagged school a lot and got into trouble but was capable enough to pull it out of the bag for my exams and get good results.

For sure there should have been facility for me to keep learning and branching out but it would be silly to pretend that there weren't a majority of students who needed it to be that basic and that slow.

The downside of 'inclusion' is that often it seems like no one is best served in the interests of trying to serve everyone.

I don't think most of my peers experienced it exactly as I did, no. The system failed me in the way I described, and it failed them in many other different ways. Was the majority's time in those years optimised for learning? Definitely not. Hence the need for fundamental re-examining of what education is actually for in my opinion. What is the purpose? Why do they go to school each day and what are the things they need to know/ be able to do when they leave?

Some examples: top of my list would ne critical thinking/ learning philosophy (as that is what it teaches: logic). In a world of conflicting and false information, being able to identify psychological manipulation and analyse things rationally is essential. Far more important than memorising facts that can be found in seconds on the internet. It should be taught from primary school but is completely absent. Why?

Politics. If people do not understand how their political system and other political systems are structured and why, then how can they evaluate it or make rational choices in voting without being manipulated?

Economics - to make any decisions in a general election and be able to tell what is the likely outcome of the policies proposed this is essential. On the national curriculum? Nope. Understanding economic cycles, the effect of public vs private spending/ debt, compound interest (mortgages, savings, credit cards). Etc.

Yet mysteriously many politicians and business leaders studied PPE at university... hmmmmm. Draw your own conclusions from that. Ignorance is easier to control.

A focus on these critical thinking skills and basic understanding of society supplemented with core subjects (maths, science, languages) would be sufficient. Then let people focus the rest of their time on their individual talents and interests. That is how you inspire a love of learning in the majority of pupils in my opinion, and give them all confidence.

Everyone has abilities. Many are destroyed by the schooling process. I was lucky mine were of the academic kind that schools recognised even though I found being there hell and boring, in equal measures. But why is art or drama less valuable? Or practical abilities? Or sport? It's better for someone to have one real talent be nurtured than be forced to study things they will never be interested in to a low level that is not useful for their interest or career. I really recommend watching the TED talk at the link I posted - he explains the view I've always had in a much funnier and more knowledgable way than I can.

PolkadotZebras · 09/03/2021 01:31

@noblegiraffe

Urgh. Ken Robinson.

Try being a creative engineer type without a solid grounding in maths.

He was not saying anything like that. His point is that the education system needs to provide the core skills (obviously including maths) and then foster creativity and let people pursue their own talents and interests. Not turn their teens into miserable boredom and turn them off learning and thinking and being creative for good. The UK school system is a national disgrace, much like our health service, and teachers being defensive about it rather than calling for the much needed change is depressing.
PolkadotZebras · 09/03/2021 01:40

I agree with every word of your post and could say the same. Can't believe it takes so many lessons to do so little. But then again, a lot of lessons are wasted when teachers are absent, or when half a class is off on a school trip or practising for a sport/drama event, and the days before end of term when it's filling time doing quizzes or watching videos. I did an English A level in one year at college - 90 minutes per week (one evening) - we covered the whole course, studied 4 books and a poetry anthology and got a grade A - yet at school it's 3 times that amount of time per year and they have 2 years so 6 times the amount of time (my son did it in sixth form and still they didn't have time to finish the course!)

It's infuriating isn't it, the thought of so much wasted time in absolute nonsense. 20 minute explanations of what could be grasped by half the class in two minutes. Understaffing, pointless "group activities" to repeat what's just been explained in said previous 20 minutes just in case somebody hasn't yet got it. Yet everyone has to sit through it. I remember being reprimanded for staring out of the window in boredom because they just kept repeating themselves and labouring a very boring and simple point. Self-study is so much richer and more enjoyable, with lectures and then perhaps some seminars to discuss ideas. The "classroom" style education, for most subjects, needs to die. It is so counterproductive to education and learning except for those with specific needs for that. I really hope that one positive that comes out of Covid is that these ideas are reconsidered. But with the insipid Williamson in charge and teachers acting like their profession is a faith and any constructive criticism and new ideas are blasphemy, sadly I doubt it will happen.

Sapho47 · 09/03/2021 01:46

@Howshouldibehave

also reduce the summer holidays by one week. It's a compromise that would work well for both primary and secondary and still has the pupils needs for education, social activities, family, holidays etc and parents requirements at the fore. It wouldn't be permanent surely just for a year or so

So, just for a year or so? And would you remove the first week of the school holiday this year, when I’ve booked a week away or the last week of the holiday, when my job share has booked and the week away? How would you select whose summer holiday you ruined?

I'd let the school pick one based upon their circumstances.

And send a letter out to parents reminding them of the fines for removing their child in term time.

Sound fair?

Procrastination4 · 09/03/2021 03:03

Thank goodness someone highlighted this! I was wondering just when did the OP think the teachers were going to get planning, preparation and marking done!

Procrastination4 · 09/03/2021 03:06

Argh! The quote function didn’t work! I was referring to BrumBoo’s post at 13.00

PolkadotZebras · 09/03/2021 03:25

@TheHoneyBadger

Honestly if you went by what works in countries doing well you'd be inclined towards shorter school days, longer holidays and no homework oh and not starting school till at least a cuople of years older.

However many of these countries have very different attitudes to parental responsibility and input and to class sizes, teacher pay and qualifications, school facilities and tech etc.

Things that cost a lot of money and/or require mature societal conversations. Neither of which go down well here.

I agree with this also. There's plenty of time during the days at school at primary to cover what needs to be learned (basic numeracy, literacyl, critical thinking skills and a love of reading). Yet many leave primary school without this despite parentw having to fill the gap and help children do the learning at home. Absolutely mad that this can't be covered in 6 years of 4-5 hours a day in term time. I get that teachers are defensive because their job has been treated like crap by the Governments of the UK for decades but surely then they should be the ones standing up and saying it needs to change: not just pay and conditions but the entire system, so that children actually use that time to expand their minds appropriately and come out of primary with good grasp of language and maths etc ready to pursue their particular talents at secondary (as I've said the secondary system requires total overhaul to make that possible).

It seems ludicrous to me that the qualified people in a system support its continuation just with their pay increasing/ hours decreasing (all I ever hear from their unions etc) when the entire thing is not fit for the purpose it purports to serve. It needs to change fundamentally, to be of any use. In my profession, if things were that disfunctional people would be livid and make sure it changed before it ever got to the disgraceful state it is in, in the UK now. Otherwise they'd be struck off for breaching professional ethics.

Eve76 · 09/03/2021 05:48

I wouldn’t want my son in school any longer than he is . At present he is out the house from 7 am to 3.30 apart Monday where he has an extra lesson and gets home at 4.30 . Those hours are longer than some adults work

Chewingle · 09/03/2021 05:49

@PolkadotZebras

I agree with every word of your post and could say the same. Can't believe it takes so many lessons to do so little. But then again, a lot of lessons are wasted when teachers are absent, or when half a class is off on a school trip or practising for a sport/drama event, and the days before end of term when it's filling time doing quizzes or watching videos. I did an English A level in one year at college - 90 minutes per week (one evening) - we covered the whole course, studied 4 books and a poetry anthology and got a grade A - yet at school it's 3 times that amount of time per year and they have 2 years so 6 times the amount of time (my son did it in sixth form and still they didn't have time to finish the course!)

It's infuriating isn't it, the thought of so much wasted time in absolute nonsense. 20 minute explanations of what could be grasped by half the class in two minutes. Understaffing, pointless "group activities" to repeat what's just been explained in said previous 20 minutes just in case somebody hasn't yet got it. Yet everyone has to sit through it. I remember being reprimanded for staring out of the window in boredom because they just kept repeating themselves and labouring a very boring and simple point. Self-study is so much richer and more enjoyable, with lectures and then perhaps some seminars to discuss ideas. The "classroom" style education, for most subjects, needs to die. It is so counterproductive to education and learning except for those with specific needs for that. I really hope that one positive that comes out of Covid is that these ideas are reconsidered. But with the insipid Williamson in charge and teachers acting like their profession is a faith and any constructive criticism and new ideas are blasphemy, sadly I doubt it will happen.

Crap schools. Always ha e been, always will be. Nothing will change that.

My experience was very different
And my children’s experience in present time (pre covid) was like say and night to your description

Awalkintime · 09/03/2021 05:56

PolkadotZebras

Have you had your head in the sand since 2014? -Teachers called out the curriculum and have been fighting for all these years but were told to put up and shut up.

garlictwist · 09/03/2021 05:58

I do think that secondary schools finish too early in the day. When I was at school we finished at 4pm, and I think that's a better time than 3pm. It gives more time for sport and other subjects that get squeezed out.

motherrunner · 09/03/2021 06:44

@garlictwist

I do think that secondary schools finish too early in the day. When I was at school we finished at 4pm, and I think that's a better time than 3pm. It gives more time for sport and other subjects that get squeezed out.
Secondary schools have started finishing around 3 over the last 10 years due to behaviour - afternoons have always a been a struggle to teach but factor in an hour’s lunch where fighting was rife or students going off site and not returning, makes afternoons worse. Also it’s to stagger the times between secondaries and primaries closing too.
chocolatesweets · 09/03/2021 06:45

YABU

Catford · 09/03/2021 06:48

Yanbu

BatleyTownswomensGuild · 09/03/2021 06:52

YANBU. There's no way we are cutting our summer holiday short.

My kid hasn't seen his cousins, aunts, uncles etc face to face for 16 months now (we live in different parts of the country.) An important part of our school holidays will be reconnecting with family.

Howshouldibehave · 09/03/2021 06:58

I'd let the school pick one based upon their circumstances.And send a letter out to parents reminding them of the fines for removing their child in term time.Sound fair?

No. A good job it won’t be happening really.

MummyMayo1988 · 09/03/2021 09:32

Personally I think our little ones have more than earned a summer holiday. Without the worry of Covid. They've lost soo much already; I think it's unfair to take away this as well.
I am looking forward to getting out and about - socially distanced - with my children in the sun this year.
Children are wonderfully resilient; they will make up their school work next year.

ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown · 09/03/2021 09:49

@garlictwist

I do think that secondary schools finish too early in the day. When I was at school we finished at 4pm, and I think that's a better time than 3pm. It gives more time for sport and other subjects that get squeezed out.
I finished at 4 but started at 9. Now I start at 8.30 and finish and 3.30. And lunchtime is shorter!
msgreen · 09/03/2021 10:26

My daughter went to a school as a day girl, because it was primarily
a boarding school they had a really long day.starting at 8.20
the rule was no one goes home before 7.00pm
and Saturday was a full school day with an early finish at 4.00pm!
It was a nightmare the kids where pushed so hard, the staff lived on their nerves and both lived on coffee in huge amounts .
When it came to exams the use of drugs in school was alarming the
pupils doing A levels where doing anything they could to extend their working days.
CRAZY causes long term mental health issues etc we need to teach our
kids to care for them selves and their wellbeing in healthy ways that will
stand them in good stead for life .
The whole education system needs overhauling .Children are being treated like machines .
LONGER DAYS WONT HELP

Chewingle · 09/03/2021 10:35

@msgreen

Why? Why the heck didn’t you remove your child from this environment?

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