Triple lock remains

[triplelock]

Name changed as I understand this probably won't be a popular opinion.

AIBU to think it's not exactly fair for the working population to have their tax thresholds frozen for 4 years while pensions get to keep their triple lock?

I understand some pensioners struggle on the state pension alone. But a lot of families also struggle on minimum wage.

@Kendodd

You know I don't begrudge pensions their wealth at all, I'm happy for them, infact don't we have one of the lowest state pensions in Europe? What does really piss me off though is the sense of entitlement and complete incomprehension that life is harder for the young today and that baby boomers were lucky to have had the easiest ride through life in human history. I know someone is going to pile in about 'worked hard all my life' bollocks, but so what, that doesn't make you special, everyone works hard and our young people will have to work even harder for less reward.

Typical example -
I have a friend, grew up in the home countries with one sibling in a nice semi in a nice area, parents both in professional jobs. Her mum stopped work for over ten years while she was little then went back part time. One income was fine and they could still go on holiday every year, mostly to Europe. Parents both retired at 60 with good pensions.

Her and her husband both have very similar professions jobs, two kids. The live in the south west because they couldn't afford the south east, in a nice house, not quite as nice as her parents, but still nice. She didn't stop working when kids were little because they couldn't have managed on one income. They do get to go on holiday every year, usually Europe. They have a nice life, just working more hours than the previous generation with a slightly worse house (worth half as much). Her parents income from their pensions is HIGHER than my friend and her husband's wages. They won't be retiring at 60 and won't have the same income despite working harder and longer.

I have volunteered for a charity that helps older people for every story that you and others have about a 'friend' I can tell you 10 more about pensioners in poverty. Oh and by the way this 'worked hard all my life bollocks' well I suggest you look at the posts the DWP put about UC on Facebook, every time they do they get 100s of complaints from WORKING AGE people denied UC due to savings, partners income, and other things, 99% of these complaints include the words' I have worked all my life' .

Now as a new pensioner I don't agree I have worked all my life - hard or otherwise - I have worked for the best part of 51 years (thus far) but that is not ALL my life. In fact when I was thinking of deferring my pension its was the young members of my family who were horrified that I was going to refuse it and it was my 38 year old DS who actually said - 'Mum take it you have worked all your life for it'

Yep absolutely nothing to do with rising house prices & better private pensions being available

House prices tanked in the late 80s/early 90s. There were people in negative equity paying 15% interest on a deficit.

@Kendodd

You know I don't begrudge pensions their wealth at all, I'm happy for them, infact don't we have one of the lowest state pensions in Europe? What does really piss me off though is the sense of entitlement and complete incomprehension that life is harder for the young today and that baby boomers were lucky to have had the easiest ride through life in human history. I know someone is going to pile in about 'worked hard all my life' bollocks, but so what, that doesn't make you special, everyone works hard and our young people will have to work even harder for less reward.

Typical example -
I have a friend, grew up in the home countries with one sibling in a nice semi in a nice area, parents both in professional jobs. Her mum stopped work for over ten years while she was little then went back part time. One income was fine and they could still go on holiday every year, mostly to Europe. Parents both retired at 60 with good pensions.

Her and her husband both have very similar professions jobs, two kids. The live in the south west because they couldn't afford the south east, in a nice house, not quite as nice as her parents, but still nice. She didn't stop working when kids were little because they couldn't have managed on one income. They do get to go on holiday every year, usually Europe. They have a nice life, just working more hours than the previous generation with a slightly worse house (worth half as much). Her parents income from their pensions is HIGHER than my friend and her husband's wages. They won't be retiring at 60 and won't have the same income despite working harder and longer.

Your example is from a middle class family and I’ve noticed this kind of example is used a lot in these kind of discussions. If you had a fairly comfortable, middle class upbringing then you probably wouldn’t be able to achieve similar at a similar age to your parents. You will inherit wealth though which many won’t. It’s like when people complain about not being able to buy a ‘ family house ‘ in a ‘ good area’. It means we are not as middle class now as we expect to be. I’m from a working class background and I would consider my life easier than my parents. My dad worked 12 hour shifts, 7 days in a factory in conditions that would not be allowed now and have affected his health in retirement. They did buy a house but lived through a period of unemployment then high interest rates. That involved food poverty as well as lack of basics( heat, shoes that fit). A middle class millennial might look at them, getting angry about their home ownership and a pension that means they are not living in poverty. It’s not the full picture.

I'm from a working class background, grew up on benefits in a poor northern town. I think even the working class had it better back then than they do now. Benefits were relatively easy to claim and seemed more generous. Zero hours contracts didn't exist. People and families could generally get secure accommodation either by way of a council house or buying. They weren't stuck paying massive private rental costs for homes they could be booted out of with four weeks notice. University educated was free, in fact you were paid a grant to go. As I said, I don't begrudge pensions any of this, I'm glad for them. I just wish they'd see that young people today don't have it so easy and it's not because they don't work hard enough or eat too many avocados. And before anyone accused me of just being jealous, I'm at the very tail end of the baby boomers myself, I benefited from free education and affordable housing, my children, won't have it so easy. I just wish older people would recognise this instead of the 'worked hard' bollocks. Working hard all their life is what just about everyone does, it's nothing special and I'd bet money that the generations above and below the baby boomers both worked/will have to work harder than they did.

Her mum stopped work for over ten years while she was little then went back part time

She probably had no choice. There was no maternity leave and very little childcare available, most women stopped work until their kids started school. Women who had careers were in a minority, most had jobs. Yes, university education was free but only 5-7% of the population had it. It was subsidised by the 95% who didn’t.

It’s impossible not to recognise that it’s difficult for young people now and it would be foolish not to acknowledge that the cost of housing in particular is a major issue but that wasn’t manufactured by boomers who have watched the “value” of their house rise with some bemusement. The blame for that lies fairly and squarely with right to buy and buy to let.

Working hard isn’t generational. In every generation some people bust their arses and others don’t. The real injustice in our society is that some of the people who work the hardest are those who are paid the least.

Another thing I remember from years ago. If you were on benefits as a family or single mum, there was no expectation that both parents should work. You could be a single mum on benefits at home looking after your children until the youngest was 16, no pressure or sanctioned to look for work. No way would I want to turn the clock back on women rights but I do sometimes think the main the feminism has brought us is chronic exhaustion from all the work. As stated though, I wouldn't turn the clock back on the other benefits and consider myself a feminist but I'm not so blind that I refuse to see how hard young people have life in comparison. I think our focus should be on improving life for them rather than grabbing as much as we can for ourselves and telling ourselves we deserve it.

She probably had no choice
Actually I think she did have a choice (I'm glad for her), it was her daughter who had no choice.

The real injustice in our society is that some of the people who work the hardest are those who are paid the least.
Completely agree. That's why I get so pissed of with the 'worked hard all my life lot' as if people without million pound houses and fat pensions haven't worked hard.

I think our focus should be on improving life for them rather than grabbing as much as we can for ourselves and telling ourselves we deserve it

Totally agree. And you’re right about benefits. I remember feeling that I’d been sold down the river in 1997 when the first thing the Labour government - which I’d waited for almost the whole of my adult life - did was cut single parents benefits. There was a value to mothers of pre school kids being at home and the Blair government destroyed recognition of that.

@Kendodd

Another thing I remember from years ago. If you were on benefits as a family or single mum, there was no expectation that both parents should work. You could be a single mum on benefits at home looking after your children until the youngest was 16, no pressure or sanctioned to look for work. No way would I want to turn the clock back on women rights but I do sometimes think the main the feminism has brought us is chronic exhaustion from all the work. As stated though, I wouldn't turn the clock back on the other benefits and consider myself a feminist but I'm not so blind that I refuse to see how hard young people have life in comparison. I think our focus should be on improving life for them rather than grabbing as much as we can for ourselves and telling ourselves we deserve it.

As I said in reply to your other post, look at where the DWP has posted on Facebook inviting WORKING AGE people to apply for UC and read the fury and the resentment shown in the comments by people complaining how they cant get it due to having savings or a partner with an income as I said 99% of these comments mention 'I have worked all my life' as part of their complaint, I think that would count as wanting to grab as much as they can and telling themselves they deserve it as well. Luckily the young people in my own family don't resent older people having a pension otherwise they wouldn't have made such a fuss when I wanted to defer mine.

inviting WORKING AGE people to apply for UC
And are these working age people working?
That's part of what I'm pointing out, in many cases a full time job isn't enough live on anymore. It never used to be as hard as it is now to get by. Baby boomers generally had an easier ride than the generations before and after. I don't begrudge them that but is does piss me off that they pretend it isn't true.

There has been some pretty nasty stuff recently aimed at that generation so some defensiveness is understandable.

There was some pretty grinding poverty in that generation. A lot of the working class did buy houses for the first time ( partly fuelled by right to buy) but mortgage payments were high as interest was so high. Women did work but options a lot more limited. Clothes and food were a lot more expensive relative to wages. Nowadays expectations for lifestyle are different. People expect a holiday and often foreign holidays. Eating out and take out are common activities. Things are more difficult in terms of our later retirement ages and high house prices but a discussion of that, without the generational hate, would be more productive.

@Oldsu
Similar to your family, I haven’t see that resentment in the younger members of my family either. They have managed to buy houses ( in cheap towns). They will struggle a bit.
I still think some of the millennial anger seen is a middle class issue and a case of a drop in middle class lifestyle. The image of a nice family house and living well on one wage was never really a reality for most people.

This thread quickly turned into something it was not meant to be.

It's not about whether pensioners deserve a pensioner, or even deserve a rise, or even about it being means tested. It's not about how hard people have or haven't worked. The pension is a right and something that I'm glad this country has, and I hope it still exists when I retire.

It was about whether the triple lock should be temporarily replaced with a simple % for the next 4 years in order to spread the cost of the pandemic across all generations.

However if people are interested in the difference in wealth/income between generations then there are some good factual articles online. Including this one: amp.ft.com/content/81343d9e-187b-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640

@Kendodd

inviting WORKING AGE people to apply for UC And are these working age people working? That's part of what I'm pointing out, in many cases a full time job isn't enough live on anymore. It never used to be as hard as it is now to get by. Baby boomers generally had an easier ride than the generations before and after. I don't begrudge them that but is does piss me off that they pretend it isn't true.

These are working age people who have another form of income - partners wages, savings, a lot of the comments were not about that they couldn't afford to live but the unfairness of not getting any benefits despite 'working all their lives' you should read some one of them, the level of entitlement is staggering. As someone who started work in 1970 and was married in 1972, I can assure you we did not have it easy at all, It took DH and I 7 years to save up for a deposit on a house whilst paying rent, when we first started renting we couldn't afford much at all we had to move into a cheaper area to rent and when we finally got our deposit we had to move into a cheaper area to buy, much like young people have to do now.

But it was the early 90s when we really struggled, we both lost our jobs in the same week, there was no help with a mortgage, no tax credits.no UC nothing, DH went to college to retrain, I worked 3 jobs just to keep our home, that's why when we were back on our feet we paid into a private pension so that we had something extra when we retired..

I don't need to pretend its not true I lived through it I know it isn't true.

That is an interesting article and does tie in to the expectations of being wealthier than previous generations. Millennials are earning more than gen x were at the same age and slightly less when housing costs are factored in. The timeline of boomers is interesting as it is fairly low until they hit their 50s. That would have been as they started to pay off mortgages.
Our state pension is low compared to many countries so no, I don’t think the triple lock should be removed. Anyone on generous incomes pays tax.

From the article

More than half of millennials who don’t own homes have parents who don’t own homes either

That indicates to me that there’s a lot of bank of mum and dad going into millennials’ home ownership, in turn suggesting that boomers perhaps aren’t as selfish as we’re led to believe.

@Alsohuman

From the article

More than half of millennials who don’t own homes have parents who don’t own homes either

That indicates to me that there’s a lot of bank of mum and dad going into millennials’ home ownership, in turn suggesting that boomers perhaps aren’t as selfish as we’re led to believe.

I don't believe I ever called any selfish.

However, I'm not really sure how you got to that conclusion from that quote. But I'll admit a lot of people I know who have been able to afford houses were helped out by their parents or grandparents. Which in my opinion is not right, all should be able to afford housing regardless of their families wealth.

Interesting how both replies so far have completely failed to acknowledge the massive table at the top of the article which shows a huge difference in the amount of disposable income between generations.

@Alsohuman

From the article

More than half of millennials who don’t own homes have parents who don’t own homes either

That indicates to me that there’s a lot of bank of mum and dad going into millennials’ home ownership, in turn suggesting that boomers perhaps aren’t as selfish as we’re led to believe.

And that's true my parents never owned, I am the only one out of my 3 sister to own, and boy was my mum proud when we got our first place she told everyone even the milkman. When my DS decided not to go to Uni and took an apprenticeship as a plumber we were very proud, and when he bought his first house (helped by us) we were also proud but when he sold it at a profit we didn't expect him to give us back the money we paid to help him get on the ladder in the first place we were glad for him.

The table shows that millennials have the same amount of disposable income in their 20s/30s that boomers had in their 50s. What completely distorts it is the difference in housing costs - which is driven historically by right to buy and more recently by buy to let.

Kendodd@ so you think baby boomers had it easy? If they wanted to work there was no help with childcare, non of the luxuries regarding kitchen gadgets, inequality amongst men and women was the norm. However I do agree that all generations have to work hard even if the type of work was different.
You give an example of one middle class family but this wasn’t the norm, what about the women who were left on their own with little or no financial support they had to juggle working with no help with childcare.l

@triplelock
The table shows that millennials have more disposable income at the equivalent age as previous generations and significantly more than boomers. So not really the picture that is painted by all the boomer haters. What it does show is that the rise in income has slowed and it adjusts for housing costs later in the article which it says put them slightly below gen x.
Nobody doubts that generation are facing issues with housing costs but a lot of the boomer hate is based on ignorance.

so you think baby boomers had it easy?

I think they had it easier than the generations before and after yes. I don't begrudge them this though, as I said, the only thing that pisses me off is that they (some) refuse to see this and to see how much harder young people today have it.
The young have affordable luxury today and unaffordable essentials.
Babyboomers had affordable essentials and unaffordable luxury.

Boomers were hit by redundancies and the collapse of industries that looked stable. They were hit by Thatchers 17% mortgage interest. They were hit by Thatchers sell-off of social housing (though the lucky ones cashed in and bought £20 notes for a fiver) and they have seen their children suffer the consequences.

The lucky ones had free University education, and they were the generation that voted for the Thatcher government that put an end to it (you may detect a pattern here).

The unlucky ones worked in industries and towns that were wiped out, and some never worked again.

There are bitter divisions between the Right-leaning and the Left-leaning boomers, and great wealth disparity between the lucky ones and the rest. Don't believe they are a homogenous mass.

The lucky ones bought houses and kept them when asset price inflation pushed their value up, and the depreciation of the pound shrivelled up their mortgages.

They were almost the last generation to see affordable housing in the UK.

You forgot income tax at 33% in the late 70s @PigletJohn. That was fun.

Don’t blame others for your poor decisions. You are the golden generation - it’s a pity you chose to squander it. As for where I got the information- right move shows property values, my local council every year when it sends the bill reminds pensioners to claim discount snd so do British Gas and Thames water. Age 75 for tv licence. Until recently it was 60. My local dentist (I can’t be a member as there are no nhs places for me or my children so I pay private) has posters advertising free care for retired folk and so does spec savers in the high street. The cafes and hairdressers even offer concessions. There there are travel companies too. And it’s free travel in London anytime.